Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 120

summlan · 10/12/08, 7:19 PM

@Nightcrowler.

Im sorry for spelling your name wrong.

Added your code. Took me some time to actually understand what it does, and flash was complaining about a missing ")". Thanks alot!
Cleaned the function up and it seems to be working. I get numbers from +470 to -120 depending on how many seconds rip has left, is that correct?

Changed your strategy accordingly.

if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer<0) doMangle();
if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer>0 && RakeTimer<0 && BLEED==0) doRake();
if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer>0) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=50) doBerserk();
if(SavageRoarTimer<0 && cp>=2) doSavageRoar();
if(RipTimer<=0 && cp==5) doRip();
if(cp==5 && RipTimer>0 && energybar.energy < ripvsfb) doFerociousBite();
if(cp==5 && RipTimer>0 && energybar.energy > ripvsfb && energybar.energy>86) doRip();
// if(RipTimer>10 && cp==5) doFerociousBite();
// if(RipTimer>=7 && cp==5 && energybar.energy<=70) doFerociousBite();
// if(RipTimer>=5 && cp==5 && energybar.energy<=40) doFerociousBite();
// if(energybar.energy>=86 && cp==5) doRip();
if(MangleTimer<0 && cp<5) doMangle();
if(RakeTimer<0 && cp<5) doRake();
if(energybar.energy>=67 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=42 && TigersFuryTimer<1 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy<=38 && oocTimer<=0) doTigersFury();

@Tangedyn

To light up buttons depending on strategy choosen is a great idea. Il look into that tomorrow, its very easy to implement.
Thank you for the link, il look into it. I think il write my own parser, since its not that complicated.

nightcrowler · 10/13/08, 12:28 AM

@summlan

No

I've tried the simulation but it doesn't work properly,it basically always rip. if you paste me the code of that part I can look at it.

Those are my values:

Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 17, RIPvsFB: 212
Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 15, RIPvsFB: 183
Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 13, RIPvsFB: 155
Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 11, RIPvsFB: 126
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 97 energy, Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 9, RIPvsFB: 97
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 68 energy, Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 7, RIPvsFB: 68
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 40 energy, Rip ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 5, RIPvsFB: 40
Use RIP (wait for 86 energy), ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 3, RIPvsFB: 11
Use RIP (wait for 86 energy), ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 1, RIPvsFB: -17

Also I didn't remember a part of shred strategy:

if(energybar.energy>=67 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=42 && TigersFuryTimer<1 && cp<5) doShred();

Should be:

if(energybar.energy>=67 && cp<3) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=42 && TigersFuryTimer<1 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=42 && cp>=3 && cp<5) doShred();

In the following (as for RIPvsFB):

ability.damage = ability.hitchance*((1-crit.chance)*ability.normalhitdamage+crit.chance*ability.criticalhitdamage)
rip.tick = 0 when rip start, 6-8-9 when it ends (for istance with t7+rip_gliph) at timer=19, rip.tick=0, timer=17, rip.tick=1 and so on.

ripvsfb=fb.energy+(rip.damageXtick*rip.tick + (fb.energy-rip.energy)*(shred.damage/shred.energy) -FB.damage) /(FB.extraenergydamageXenergy -shred.damage/shred.energy)

you could easly consider mangle & bleed up if you don't want to compute it "on-the-fly".

---------

Is there any addons developer who can do a "simple" addon that keep track in a unique bar of:

mangle/trauma debuff
bleed debuff
-----
SR timer
rake timer
rip timer

?

It could be very usefull.

erduker · 10/13/08, 7:15 AM

120 pages, what is the conclusions?
I tried to read back a bit but it does take a long time. If someone that has been following this thread could make a summery I think it would be appreciated by many, at least me

What is the best bear and cat specs for lvl 70 and lvl 80?
What is the best TPS rotations for lvl 70 and 80?
What is the best DPS rotations for lvl 70 and 80?

I did find the cat at 80 dps at The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSGearMethod � discussion � re: THE ultimate dps rotation?.

Selmarix · 10/13/08, 7:32 AM

There is no final conclusion about the best cat dps rotation yet. Unlike most other classes cat rotations will be quite complex with many different timers to watch and many different rotations possible. Many "rotations" are not even rotations any more but rather action lists with conditionals.

Bear tps on the other hand is pretty simple. Compared to now the main change for single target tanking is that Maul is more powerful and not only a rage burner (which means the difference in tps between being hit and not being hit is higher). Threat in general has been buffed so much that running an optimal rotation is not very important.

summlan · 10/13/08, 9:37 AM

@Erduker.
try out your own cat-rotation here feraldps

Sadirin · 10/13/08, 11:15 AM

Funny, Blizzard stated during Blizzcon that both the affliction and the hunter attack cycle were too complicated and wants to make them more simplier.

Considering that the cat attack cycle is one of the most complicated, if not the most complicated, I really hope that Blizzard will make the cat cycle a little bit more easier, too. Right now, it is a nightmare, considering that you need to pay attention not only to the cycle but to the raid, the environment and the bosses too.

Mijae · 10/13/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Funny, Blizzard stated during Blizzcon that both the affliction and the hunter attack cycle were too complicated and wants to make them more simplier.

Considering that the cat attack cycle is one of the most complicated, if not the most complicated, I really hope that Blizzard will make the cat cycle a little bit more easier, too. Right now, it is a nightmare, considering that you need to pay attention not only to the cycle but to the raid, the environment and the bosses too.

I think it's actually a bonus for us. You actually can keep yourself to a simple cycle and do fair dps. We don't need to use very a very complex cycle, but it will be a boost to those that can do it well. The current discussions have been figuring out the max dps cycle. However, it's the type of thing where if you mess up a couple times you might have been better off not trying at all. It could be the type of cycle to only use on straight tank-and-spank fights, but you might need to simplify it for a complex one.

I don't know about the other class cycles. Perhaps they don't have the same spread in options... Perhaps they were babied too much in TBC doing top dps by only pushing one or two buttons.

Janraea · 10/13/08, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

I think it's actually a bonus for us. You actually can keep yourself to a simple cycle and do fair dps. We don't need to use very a very complex cycle, but it will be a boost to those that can do it well. The current discussions have been figuring out the max dps cycle. However, it's the type of thing where if you mess up a couple times you might have been better off not trying at all. It could be the type of cycle to only use on straight tank-and-spank fights, but you might need to simplify it for a complex one.

I don't know about the other class cycles. Perhaps they don't have the same spread in options... Perhaps they were babied too much in TBC doing top dps by only pushing one or two buttons.

End-game dps will be balanced around the expert player, because terrible (or even average) players don't make it into progression raids in top-end guilds. If we were balanced around the simple rotation, t9 raids would be full of feral druids who could manage the complicated one, because they'd outdps anyone else.

dakalro · 10/13/08, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Funny, Blizzard stated during Blizzcon that both the affliction and the hunter attack cycle were too complicated and wants to make them more simplier.

Considering that the cat attack cycle is one of the most complicated, if not the most complicated, I really hope that Blizzard will make the cat cycle a little bit more easier, too. Right now, it is a nightmare, considering that you need to pay attention not only to the cycle but to the raid, the environment and the bosses too.

They actually complicated affliction cycle, and brought destro one pretty close to the affliction one, in complexity. For affliction there's actually Haunt cycle (10 sec CD, 12s dur, 1.5 cast), UA/Immo cycle (15s dur, 1.5 cast), CoA cycle (24/28s, instant), SL cycle (30s, instant), all on top of each other and SB/LT when not doing any of the above. And yes, it hurts a bit to pay attention to everything especially when dropping haunt most likely means you lose corruption (should be once/fight cast), Shadow Embrace (10% dmg), Haunt itself (20% dmg) but should soon come back, spent half a year a long time ago doing something only slightly easier.

Toranshalur · 10/13/08, 1:10 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

End-game dps will be balanced around the expert player, because terrible (or even average) players don't make it into progression raids in top-end guilds. If we were balanced around the simple rotation, t9 raids would be full of feral druids who could manage the complicated one, because they'd outdps anyone else.

I'd have to disagree. The top dpsing ferals in sunwell (monique, deep etc) weren't in the top top guilds such as nihilum. These ferals were too few in number for it to be worthwhile finding and recruiting one. As long as encounters are balanced around the average player, the very fast progresion guilds only need players with average dps who don't make raid-wiping mistakes. First kills aren't done by pushing out more dps than the competition, they're done by learning the fight faster than the competition.

I hope that the feral rotation stays nice and complex; feral would be too simplistic without it, bear tanking is less complex than any of the other tanks (don't know about DKs) and it's not like we use and balance or restoration spells regularly in raids to make up the difference. Feral needs something to keep it interesting for the high level players.

Classes are designed around the players who play them; pure dps classes are going to attract different people than healer or tank classes might, so some classes will be more simple than others. Hopefully druids will stay complex and interesting.

tlbj6142 · 10/13/08, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Considering that the cat attack cycle is one of the most complicated, if not the most complicated, I really hope that Blizzard will make the cat cycle a little bit more easier, too. Right now, it is a nightmare, considering that you need to pay attention not only to the cycle but to the raid, the environment and the bosses too.

I think with the right addon that allows us to easily track all the cooldowns (TF, Berserk, etc.) and debuffs (Rake, Rip, Mangle, etc.), it might not be all that difficult.

Using the default UI or even X-Perl's "big debuffs", is a bit awkward. Not to mention having to keep track of boss "phases" and special attacks.

Janraea · 10/13/08, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

I think with the right addon that allows us to easily track all the cooldowns (TF, Berserk, etc.) and debuffs (Rake, Rip, Mangle, etc.), it might not be all that difficult.

Using the default UI or even X-Perl's "big debuffs", is a bit awkward. Not to mention having to keep track of boss "phases" and special attacks.

Aye. We will probably need to switch to 'simple cycle' on a significant number of fights anyway, just to keep up with fight mechanics, or because our dps has to be interrupted at intervals.

Toranshalur · 10/13/08, 1:39 PM

Elkano's Buff Bars (EBB) can track buffs and debuffs on both you and a target, making it ideal for tracking SR and Clearcasting on you, and rip, rake, trauma and mangle on bosses.

Mijae · 10/13/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

End-game dps will be balanced around the expert player, because terrible (or even average) players don't make it into progression raids in top-end guilds. If we were balanced around the simple rotation, t9 raids would be full of feral druids who could manage the complicated one, because they'd outdps anyone else.

As long as balancing is done between classes based on equal skill level, it doesn't matter what that skill level is so long as there are not large disparity between the levels. If the expert top-end player is the desired balance, there is nothing wrong with that. However, Blizzard knows that catering raids to top-end guilds only is a bad idea. They want a larger player base to experience the content also.

Even so, our difference from skill is not very large. When you're doing 4-5k dps, the amount of variance you'll have if the top-end is say 200 higher is hard to notice. However, if you expect to be in a top-end progression guild then you should be an expert player that can utilize more advanced strategies. If you are in a more casual guild, slightly lower numbers will be acceptable. The hardcore progression guilds will push that difference more, it's already the same with pure dps classes in BC. Of course, if you're a bad player it will start to be more noticeable.

I actually prefer a class where you can clearly identify yourself as a good player rather than just a good class that can spam one button.

Morthis · 10/13/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Sadirin

Funny, Blizzard stated during Blizzcon that both the affliction and the hunter attack cycle were too complicated and wants to make them more simplier.

Considering that the cat attack cycle is one of the most complicated, if not the most complicated, I really hope that Blizzard will make the cat cycle a little bit more easier, too. Right now, it is a nightmare, considering that you need to pay attention not only to the cycle but to the raid, the environment and the bosses too.

I felt a little overwhelmed playing with the flash at first too, but then I did a 10-15 minute run and after a while a lot of it came to me more easily, taking less focus to keep it all going. The key will be a mod that shows all these timers nice together, kind of like how the flash shows it, so you can easily track your debuffs and roar.

The only time it felt like things could get more complex is adding in FB when not using berserk (with berserk it's relatively easy). Usually when I had time to FB, roar and rip would fade around the same time, which meant I had to plan ahead to make sure I'd have enough energy available to build 5 cp for rip again and hopefully at least 2 for roar.

Also, at the risk of sounding clueless here (been out of the loop for a few months), why is the rip debuff listed at 20 seconds? Can the same glyph be applied twice (which would mean the glyphs for that setup seem to be mangle, rip, rip), or is rip's duration 16 seconds in wotlk? On test it's still 12 seconds, 16 with the glyph.

Huggme · 10/13/08, 2:46 PM

Originally Posted by Morthis

Also, at the risk of sounding clueless here (been out of the loop for a few months), why is the rip debuff listed at 20 seconds? Can the same glyph be applied twice (which would mean the glyphs for that setup seem to be mangle, rip, rip), or is rip's duration 16 seconds in wotlk? On test it's still 12 seconds, 16 with the glyph.

2x T7 armor bonus (+3 sec on RIP) + Glyph (+4 sec atm)

Which makes it a bit strange since rip ticks every 2 seconds so some people believe it is a bug and it should be 4 seconds on the T7 armor aswell.

Morthis · 10/13/08, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by Huggme

2x T7 armor bonus (+3 sec on RIP) + Glyph (+4 sec atm)

Which makes it a bit strange since rip ticks every 2 seconds so some people believe it is a bug and it should be 4 seconds on the T7 armor aswell.

Ah alright, thanks.

I really hope it doesn't turn into another situation where the set bonus from the lowest tier in a new expansion becomes a must have throughout most of it. Without the 4 extra seconds on rip, it's doubtful that a rotation could ever include FB short of a high crit + ooc streak. Not sure what kind of impact that would have on overall dps.

Gaijin42 · 10/13/08, 3:28 PM

Long time reader, first time poster.

So, looks like lots of good work going into the optimal sustained DPS cycle. How about the grind/farming cycle?

My no-math theory crafting is guessing something like

Berzerk? <-- use this when up?
Pounce (4 seconds on pounce)
Mangle (3 seconds on pounce)
Tigers Fury (for energy, if you didnt berzerk)
Shred(2 seconds on pounce)
Shred(1 seconds on pounce)
If OOC and pounce still up, shred(0 seconds on pounce)

With berzerk and TF in the same cycle, most solo mobs are probably dead here, but if berzerk wasn't up, or mob is not dead. Mot math says OOC is better than berzerk at 70 for long term efficiency

Finisher ( using opener combo points, which one? SR? Rip? depending on mob health?, FB if it will kill the mob?)
keep mangle up
keep rake up
keep FFf up
mangle

The finishers is the real question, when to use SR vs rip when soloing?

Also, Question #2,

for the purpose of FB with rend and tear, does mangle count as a bleed?

Janraea · 10/13/08, 3:33 PM

Originally Posted by Gaijin42

Long time reader, first time poster.

So, looks like lots of good work going into the optimal sustained DPS cycle. How about the grind/farming cycle?

Also, Question #2,

for the purpose of FB with rend and tear, does mangle count as a bleed?

Pounce is a waste of time grinding. In general, you keep SR up, rake, mangle until an fb will kill it, and fb. Every few mobs you'll SR instead of fbing. Pull the next mob with fff while looting and running toward the target after that one.

Worrying about longer cds like berserk while grinding is pointless - they don't really impact our grind time, since a mob takes about 5-6 seconds to die either way.

And no, mangle is not a bleed.

Huggme · 10/13/08, 3:37 PM

I would refrain from such a complex and hard to pull off cycle for farming/grinding. Simple mangle-rake-mangle-mangle-FB leaves nothing but loads of blood all over the place. (imp. magle and R&T preferably)
If you manage to pull more than one mob, tiger's fury up fome energy and repeat.

We could make a competition who thinks off more complex and harder to carry out cycle for farming, but I believe in simple things that work.

I don't argue about the potential of glyphed shred on stunned targets, but the time it takes you to stealth to mob I am already killing another. With imp. LoTP I don't think we would need to ever heal ourselves even with the little extra beating we get from not pouncing.

Any beta testers to prove me wrong?

Edit: the guy up was a bit faster.

halmmar · 10/13/08, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gaijin42

My no-math theory crafting is guessing something like

Pounce (6 seconds on pounce)

Pounce is 3(+1) seconds. I'd only use it as a starter with 2 mobs since you will regen health through Imp.LotP anyway.

Gaijin42 · 10/13/08, 3:39 PM

I use the pounce/mangle/shred/(ooc) shred , rip, mangle FB cycle in live grinding all the time, so it doesnt seem like it is much more complex

Huggme · 10/13/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Gaijin42

I use the pounce/mangle/shred/(ooc) shred , rip, mangle FB cycle in live grinding all the time, so it doesnt seem like it is much more complex

I was aiming more at the fact> Why bother with positioning to shred and wasting time with stealth than the actual need to press couple of more buttons.

Janraea · 10/13/08, 3:44 PM

Originally Posted by Gaijin42

I use the pounce/mangle/shred/(ooc) shred , rip, mangle FB cycle in live grinding all the time, so it doesnt seem like it is much more complex

It doesn't matter how complex it is, if you do it forty thousand times, it won't take any thought. But playing those pouncing game rotations is simply slower than prepulling with fff. It doesn't even really matter how fast it kills a mob; in most of the grinding situations I've seen, I spend more time running to the next mob than I do fighting.

coldbear · 10/13/08, 4:29 PM

No need to hate on Pounce for grinding/farming. The mobs' health, abilities, spacing, relative level/aggro radius, your spec and the environment and whether you're on a PVP or PVE server and how close you are to safety, how likely it is that you'll be ganked and your buffs all have an impact on whether to Pounce or Ravage or pull with FFF. It's a huge difference between grinding Legion Hold warlocks in t4/t5ish/badge gear and grinding primals or elites for example.

You'd be a fool not to take a free crit Ravage on a mob lying down if it's got huge health and it'll take you longer than the Prowl CD to engage next target, or not Pounce on something that is likely to fear you, or not FFF pull if it'll die within 3-4 special attacks or there's risk of adds.

Way too many people in this thread are obsessed with ideal situations. K.I.S.S. and make things work any day. For grinding and farming and questing where you know the mobs' abilities and got not much pvp action to worry about - get in a rhytm with whatever works and keep stuff for emergencies.

For progression bosses - theorycraft first, and plan your skill rotation with contingencies accounted for. But it's a rare thing for me to just hang out and sit and shred for ever.