Really? I distinctly remember reading other beta posters saying that Dash stuck through shapeshifts. =/

What is the purpose of even nerfing Berserk? Was it THAT overpowered? When i tried it in wintergrasp last night it was only in bear to get a few hits in on crowds.

They nerfed the CC immunity to compensate for the lowered cooldown. Pvp testing will tell whether this was really justified, or if some more immunity needs to come back.

Berserk gives bear form a great tanking cooldown and definitely a nice use to give us the burst that is needed in PvP. However, it is rather unimpressive for sustained dps.

Comparing Berserk vs OoC as a global energy increase:

Assuming you use every point of energy gained, berserk essentially doubles your current energy and any regenerated during it's duration. You never want to cap at 100 energy and chances are you wont use all of it, so I'll assume a best case around 90 energy and used on every cooldown. You also wont be able to use the last few milliseconds of energy regenerated.

(10*14.5 + 90) / 180 = 1.31 energy / sec


OoC has been stated to be changed to scale with haste, with a procrate at around 6.67%. The worst case would be no haste and a relatively low amount of hit/exp (say 90% hit chance). Assuming you always use Shred on OoC procs:

OoC * hitChance / weaponSpeed * (HitEnergy*hitChance + MissEnergy*(1-hitChance))

(3.5/60) * .9 * (42*.9 + 8*.1) = 2.03 energy / sec

With just windfury (120% haste) and a moderate amount of hit/exp (say 95% hit):

(3.5/60) * .95 * 1.2 * (42*.95 + 8*.05) = 2.68 energy / sec


With gear haste and full raid buffs, OoC is easily 2-2.5 times more beneficial to sustained DPS than Berserk. This is after the cooldown reduction too. Perhaps OoC is just too good and unfair to compare against. By my initial modeling it is still the second best dps talent.

Note: KotJ is 2 energy per second, but costs 3 talent points.

Edit: Actually Berserk would be the 3rd best talent, Shredding Attacks is second.

Heroism gives haste now which has no impact on Berserk. It actually benefits OoC much more.

Stacked abilities like Hysteria or AP trinkets would increase it's value. However, that would only be if the cooldowns are timed exactly equal. That's a bit unlikely though considering Berserk is a 3 minute cooldown and most others are 2 minutes. So, it might get the benefit of every other use. Averaging uses would still give a slight increase to Berserk compared to OoC, but OoC can proc during it also.

Sorry, this might just be me being dumb and missing something obvious, but I can't see where you're factoring in OoC's 10 second internal cooldown.

edit: I can't believe I've missed this. Source.

It no longer exists.

You know I cant see why in the world they don't just make KotJ a 1 point talent, or even combine it with something. (I do like just a 1 point talent better though.) It would help clear up some clutter it the tree. I'm not talking any drastic changes atm, although I do have major problems with feral right now, just to thin down the tree a bit.

on another topic I hate what they are doing with the feral tree at the moment. If I wanted to have to chose a spec to tank or DPS, I'd have rolled a warrior. Basically what they are doing right now is saying, ya you can spec for bear, and take these talents, oh and also not have gear that is optimized for you and is full of wasted stats unlike warriors. Or you can spec for cat, not come near what a rogue or DPS warrior can do, again not have optimized gear, like they do and be a shitty tank just like a DPS warrior with some tank gear. It's rediculous.

Edit also here are some reasons behind making KotJ 1 point. Assuming a Cat build that looks like this: here
Having those 2 extra points allows you to chose to put points into ILotP, NI, or even Brutal Impact.

As a bear build: Here
Where in the world do I put this last point? Oh look If KotJ was 1 point, that would be perfect!

WoW Forums -> TBC gear changed. No more extra armor.

No more bonus armor on BC items.

Even at 3min cooldown, Beserk still doesn't impress me as a top tier talent. They're trying to do too much with it and it's lacklustre as a useable PvE talent when you consider the duration of boss fights. For siutations like Muru adds where it potentially would be useful, you can use it twice if you're lucky.

The changed IW is also less than impressive. In practical PvE terms it's still going to be better to get another class to debuff attack speed. To me there's no point in having it at less than 3 points - I may as well use 1-2 points elsewhere.

If you look at encounters in simple terms, Feral either needs to maintank, offtank or dps. At present we can do the first two very well, the last acceptably (to support-class levels) meaning that on fight's where only one maintank is required it's often not worth the hassle of replacing the Feral for a "pure" dps class.

I realize things are still being worked on, but at present I can see raid time being wasted with me respeccing much more and being summoned back to the instance.

What kind of dps numbers are other classes estimating? My modeling shows our new values to be pretty decent, but of course it's always relative to everyone else.