Not to mention the fact that Rend and Tear is only useful for cat soloing if mobs generally aren't even close to dead by the time you hit 4-5 CPs. If you're entering Northrend in greens and dungeon blues, that may be the case, but otherwise it'll likely only be useful for soloing elites. There are definitely talents I'd rather have.
I doubt it. My bear is currently plowing through outlands at lvl 65, wearing blues and greens with one epic (X11 goggles) aimed at hybrid tanking. Generally on the occasions I get to 5CPs, the mobs are already dead, or so close it's not worth wasting a finishing move on them. I rip after 3-4 CP and move on (or FB if nothing else is close). I suppose I could move into the highest zones already and start fighting orange mobs, then they probably wouldn't die so quick. But I always find leveling goes faster fighting green and yellow mobs because things don't zerg you as much and you just go where you want and never stop rampaging. I want to finish all the CE quests anyway, that alone plus some instance runs seems to be enough to outlevel the content massively. I think I may get to 70 on this guy without doing a single quest hub where I don't need the rep.
If I can get him a few good bits of kara/ZA/badge gear before the expansion, I'm guessing he'll be even more OP than he is now in early northrend. Let alone if I were already raiding T6 with him. My mage never got close to Sunwell (can't do it even post nerf, we were only 1/2 way through T6 when patch hit), but he takes out lvl 72 normal mobs like they are so much newspaper to light on fire, and my cat is now doing dps similar to what my mage did at this level, even though I have a bear build and avoidance/stam gear.
Yes.From your question I must assume that they didn't fix it. Druids on beta should really do a chaos for that.
Honestly there's probably zero chance that we're going to get a SR stacking with UR right now. Currently the two buffs dont stack and theyre *still* trying to slightly adjust cat dps downward.
Although I wouldnt be surprised in the least that *if* cat dps starts to fall over in future raid tiers that they allow the two to stack as one potential'fix'...
Honestly there's probably zero chance that we're going to get a SR stacking with UR right now. Currently the two buffs dont stack and theyre *still* trying to slightly adjust cat dps downward.
Although I wouldnt be surprised in the least that *if* cat dps starts to fall over in future raid tiers that they allow the two to stack as one potential'fix'...
Are they really trying to tune cat dps down? The only change i saw was to tiger's fury, which could arguably produce a lot of burst, which is why they changed ret paladin skills. It might have been pre-emptive nerfing for pvp because 131 damage is a ton on such a short cooldown.
It will hurt Feral dps, but we also needed to hurt Feral dps a little. Cats with a cat spec really hurt stuff now.
It will be a slight threat nerf to bears and warriors (and DKs and paladins slightly less) but tank threat is so enormous right now, that we don't think it will be a big deal.
"4. Immune to polymorph and can break all roots and movement impairment effects."
In regards in to this statement, I have found that my ability to "un-impair" myself seems to be signficantly reduced in BG and Arena play.
It's not entirely clear if the recent server instability (ie. lag) has some role to play or that stuns such as rogue's stuns and retribution pally's stuns still remain unbreakable (without the pvp trinket). But overall, I found my survivability as a pvp feral (bear-form or cat-form) to be markedly reduced.
I'm no longer the dedicated WSG runner for example. My role is primarily back-up dps and healing. (Don't even get me started on how resto shammies kill me with ease...)
Agreed, it is mostly the stuns, both from new talents and the excess of ret pallies. Despite the nerfs ret still melts faces very quickly at 70. It is not so bad at 80 on the beta but right now don't even bother attacking one you wont win as feral without backup. Mages have gotten somewhat worse as indicated above. On the bright side we can now viably take out a warlock that isn't afk every 3 minutes.
Stuns aren't classified as a movement impairment, nor are fears, nor are incapacitates (nor is JoJ X( ) I really think that, having lost the bonus health, Berserk needs to have the Beast Within effect put back in, but i guess this is a discussion for the PvP forum.
Stuns aren't classified as a movement impairment, nor are fears, nor are incapacitates (nor is JoJ X( ) I really think that, having lost the bonus health, Berserk needs to have the Beast Within effect put back in, but i guess this is a discussion for the PvP forum.
I think there needs to be some more work on the stun philosphy by Blizzard.
Though they have in the past said that they try to reduce effects which make you unable to do anything with your character, stuns seem if anything to have been increased recently. There's not much "skill" involved if you lose over half your hp bar before all the stuns wear off. The PvP trinket is a pretty clunky fix, which isn't even reliable.
Not to mention the fact that Rend and Tear is only useful for cat soloing if mobs generally aren't even close to dead by the time you hit 4-5 CPs.
I finally got around to testing this weekend on lvl 72 quest mobs above Shat. You are correct, there is no point using a RnT enhanced FB to kill quest mobs. I use FFF->Rake->Mangle*X and most were dead by the 3rd mangle. And those what weren't would have died from a normal FB or another white attack or two. Guess I need to re-think my leveling spec....
FWIW, I had ~3400 AP, ~38% cirt and ~130 hit and 10 exp.
Another thing I started doing this weekend (during a kara run) was create a TF macro that triggers my trinkets (that way I don't forget to use them).
With respect to leveling specs, I really like this one (though I'm not sure if I'd get OoC or Berserk at 70) except I move the points from Thick Hide to Feral Instinct. It's absolutely not a raid DPS spec (RnT is clearly a winner for either a shred-spam or mangle-spam DPS spec, I just find it has no place in a leveling efficiency spec), but I've been playing around with various combinations of cat talents on live, and while there are higher-output leveling specs, I've found this to be the most efficient, rarely ever having to stop and heal, and never having to drink (which I find I have to do now and then if I don't have Imp LotP).
I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.
I see no issue getting these talents over other, less effective talents. The OoC can wait and, IMO, Primal Precision is a joke, 10 expertise at 80, at least from what I've read, is around .33%, and if you're not using finishers the secondary ability is pointless.
Also I've always been a supporter of having some PvP talents while leveling. I always find myself in a situation where PvP is happening while leveling and now that people can't run and get there 70s they are more likely to leave you alone and let you finish the quest.
I see no issue getting these talents over other, less effective talents. The OoC can wait and, IMO, Primal Precision is a joke, 10 expertise at 80, at least from what I've read, is around .33%, and if you're not using finishers the secondary ability is pointless.
Primal Precision provides 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It will give the same percentage that it gives at level 70, i.e. 2.5%.
I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.
I've played around with that, and I agree that it's a perfectly good (and fun!) strategy, but my problem with it was that I felt like I was spending five talent points to give a 20% buff to an attack I use once a fight. I leveled that way (pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred) when I was powerleveling through lvl 50 content in lvl 20 greens, but I just find that it's so much faster to pull with FFF and just mangle spam mobs down.
I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.
That sequences wastes 60 energy if you have King of the Jungle. Instead, even without Brutal Impact, you can pounce->Rake->TF->Mangle->Shred before the stun wears off, since TF is off the GCD. You can of course substitute FFF for Rake if you feel like it, shifting TF after Mangle. Note that this sequence works as long as you have Ferocity and King of the Jungle. Shredding Attacks, Imp Mangle, and set bonuses are not required.
Primal Precision provides 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It will give the same percentage that it gives at level 70, i.e. 2.5%.
edit: clarify which talent.
Thanks for clearing that up, I knew it couldn't be as bad as I thought
Originally Posted by Rangifer
That sequences wastes 60 energy if you have King of the Jungle. Instead, even without Brutal Impact, you can pounce->Rake->TF->Mangle->Shred before the stun wears off, since TF is off the GCD. You can of course substitute FFF for Rake if you feel like it, shifting TF after Mangle. Note that this sequence works as long as you have Ferocity and King of the Jungle. Shredding Attacks, Imp Mangle, and set bonuses are not required.
Brutal Impact isn't as good as it used to be, and I really hate having to get it just for the pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred combo. I do think that King of the Jungle would help it out, although you could only do it once every 30 seconds. I'm sure you could get them both while leveling and get multiple shreds off. Also I think it would be worth figuring out if Rake or FFF ends up giving you more dmg in the combo.
Has anyone got very concrete data on exactly what the threat is on mangle, maul, lacerate and swipe now? I've not seen direct numbers provided so far when searching, only a specific example of what maul's value is - but that was for months ago.
Has anyone got very concrete data on exactly what the threat is on mangle, maul, lacerate and swipe now?
Would think this would be easy to get now that we know the exact threat caused by each attack due to Blizzard's threat meter api. Have a naked buff-less bear attack mob x, record number displayed by Omen3 (or whatever it is called now). Though, I guess that doesn't give us the "math" (AP scaling, etc.) behind the number.
Brutal Impact isn't as good as it used to be, and I really hate having to get it just for the pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred combo. I do think that King of the Jungle would help it out, although you could only do it once every 30 seconds. I'm sure you could get them both while leveling and get multiple shreds off. Also I think it would be worth figuring out if Rake or FFF ends up giving you more dmg in the combo.
Comparing Pounce->Rake->Mangle->Shred->FFF to Pounce->FFF->Mangle->Shred->Rake, the difference in damage is 1 tick of rake vs 3 Autos, 1 Mangle, and 1 Shred with the AC reduction of FFF (TF were appropriate assumed). Ignoring the effect of CPs:
Rake is 414+0.18*AP over 3 ticks. or 138+0.06*AP for 1 tick.
Assuming a lvl 70 on a lvl 70 mob with 20% DR (2640 AC), FFF would lower AC to 2030 (16.1%), increasing damage by 3.9% (relative to 0% DR). 3 Autos + 1 Mangle + 1 Shred = 7.25 WD + 735. With 55 dps base WD, this is (7.25*(55+AP/14) + 735)*0.039 = 44.22 + 0.020*AP damage gained.
Assuming I did everything correctly, this means that the Rake tick deals 3x the damage of the effects of FFF. So, even with a 100% crit rate, the Rake tick wins. Having Savage Fury and Rend & Tear would buff Rake, Mangle, and Shred, but not white damage, making raking even better relative to FFF. I'm pretty sure Rake wins out even with the Glyph, Idol, and 4T5 for Shred and the bonus crit damage from Predatory Instincts and the meta gem.
Would think this would be easy to get now that we know the exact threat caused by each attack due to Blizzard's threat meter api. Have a naked buff-less bear attack mob x, record number displayed by Omen3 (or whatever it is called now). Though, I guess that doesn't give us the "math" (AP scaling, etc.) behind the number.
It should be easy enough to get the scaling too. I had hoped that this was already done somewhere, but it may not be.
The easiest way to get fairly reliable information is to have three sets of gear: naked, low AP and high AP. Get readings for damage for all of those, record the damage you dealt, and you should be able to get an overall idea of how much threat each ability causes and how they scale with AP.
If that hasn't been done, I'll start working on it. In particular I would like to find out whether there is a reasonable point where swipe overcomes lacerate spam.
10/24/08, 6:52 PM
