Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 134

tlbj6142 · 09/17/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

I posted this on the beta forums, but I figured that more eyes on it would be nice. I'm very troubled with the best tanking gear coming from pvp.

What about armor? Is it the same on both PvE and PvP pieces?

kalbear · 09/17/08, 3:46 PM

What about armor? Is it the same on both PvE and PvP pieces?

Armor is the same for all pieces at the same ilvl. I left it out because there is no such thing as additional armor on leather gear.

If for whatever reason the PvP gear in beta has any additional armor, it will be far superior to tier gear in terms of mitigation.

Neddie · 09/17/08, 4:42 PM

I've laboriously searched all 80 pages of this thread and haven't seen much discussion of the "sweeping strikes" part of Berserk. Has anybody done much testing with this? Does it seem useful? Personally, I've never wanted a multi-target mangle, although I have hoped for a multi-crit swipe.

One question I'm really curious about: If you're tanking next to a CC'd mob and you hit Berserk, does your mangle pop the sheep? Obviously if our "oh shit" button has the potential to break CC on nearby mobs, it's much less useful. Even if CC'd mobs are not affected, if it could pull a mob off another tank it's very dangerous.

Is anybody really excited about the multi-mob part of Berserk -- or about Berserk in general, now that they've nerfed the "Beast Within" part of it?

aldy · 09/17/08, 4:43 PM

requoted from above

We want druids to work differently, so we're going to try this system out this time. If it doesn't work then in a future patch or expansion we might try a different model where your stats are derived differently.

Gotta love it when they say "hey, theres a good chance we will entirely fuck up your class, but don't worry, it will be fixed a year later with the next expansion." It very well looks like I will be tanking with warrior or DK and leave the druid in cat or moonkin.

tlbj6142 · 09/17/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Neddie

I've laboriously searched all 80 pages of this thread and haven't seen much discussion of the "sweeping strikes" part of Berserk. Has anybody done much testing with this? Does it seem useful?

It doesn't get much press around here since many are focused on raids not 5-mans.

One question I'm really curious about: If you're tanking next to a CC'd mob and you hit Berserk, does your mangle pop the sheep?

I would assume it would break near-by CC'd mobs.

Is anybody really excited about the multi-mob part of Berserk -- or about Berserk in general, now that they've nerfed the "Beast Within" part of it?

I am seriously excited about Berserk for tanking, the shortened cooldown on challenging roar, the 4-5 mob swipe, and the KotJ bear buff and their affects on our AoE tanking ability.

Nopher · 09/17/08, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Neddie

I've laboriously searched all 80 pages of this thread and haven't seen much discussion of the "sweeping strikes" part of Berserk. Has anybody done much testing with this? Does it seem useful? Personally, I've never wanted a multi-target mangle, although I have hoped for a multi-crit swipe.

One question I'm really curious about: If you're tanking next to a CC'd mob and you hit Berserk, does your mangle pop the sheep? Obviously if our "oh shit" button has the potential to break CC on nearby mobs, it's much less useful. Even if CC'd mobs are not affected, if it could pull a mob off another tank it's very dangerous.

Is anybody really excited about the multi-mob part of Berserk -- or about Berserk in general, now that they've nerfed the "Beast Within" part of it?

When I started out doing instances in the beta I was giddy over Swipe hitting 5 targets and Berserk making me feel really capable. However the feeling faded fast. The AoE component to Berserk is lackluster for what we really need it for; tanking big packs of mobs. Since it uses the same targeting mechanic as Swipe (at least that’s my observation) and the fact that you're probably better of using Swipe every GCD than Mangle it loses a lot of value. Sure it's awesome for small packs but compared to the other 3 tanking classes our ability to manage big packs of mobs is lacking. Yes you could micromanage Berserk and probably put the extra Maul and Mangle hits to some use, perhaps not wasting (if you want to look at it that way) too many hits on mobs that’s already “tagged” by Swipe spam. The thing is that it will take a lot of you to approach being equal to the other tanking classes which have been given / already have really awesome AoE moves which does a lot with little effort or number of GCDs used.

Another factor that makes our AoE tanking less capable is the chance of Berserk being used as a fear break or LS. Basically any fight involving loads of mobs, fears or a big risk for MT death puts us at a real disadvantage. Berserk needs to spawn multiple abilities with separate cooldowns. Having a skill with multiple effects depending on form, with shared cooldown, be balanced for both PvE and PvP is just asking for trouble.

With the recent blue posts quoted earlier in the thread and the data on PvP gear being about the same as PVE gear for tanking I’m starting to get really worried. A split talent tree, itemization issues, AoE threat issues, lack of abilities and the implications of the shared cooldown on Berserk makes me think WotLK will lead to ferals going into a OT / cat role in an optimal raid. Blizzard will probably stick to the plan and make it possible for all four tanks to MT but right now I’m sure as hell not going to cripple the raid with my sorry ass when a capable Warrior can be used instead. (Sorry for the rant paragraph).

Neddie · 09/17/08, 6:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nopher

The AoE component to Berserk is lackluster for what we really need it for; tanking big packs of mobs.

Honestly, the idea of having to blow a 3-minute cooldown to tank big packs of mobs is... disheartening.

I'm ok if druids are supposed to be the weakest AoE tank, but throwing a tiny bit of bad AoE on our 51 point talent doesn't make us good aoe tanks, it leaves us as one of the worst. The fear break and last stand parts of the talent are nice, but nothing that can't be at least partially made up by pvp trinkets or battlemaster / shadowmoon trinkets. Now that we won't need defense, we're even more free to find a good trinket for a certain fight.

They're giving warriors frenzied regeneration and in-combat charge, two of our abilities. Why not have some talents that give us some prot-pally or warrior abilities, like make frenzied regen give us a shield-wall like effect, or make enrage break fear like berserker rage, or increase the damage done by thorns when we're enraged.

seminarca · 09/17/08, 7:49 PM

The AoE component of Berserk won't suddenly put us on par with the other classes for AoE tanking, but it's not negligible either. Using nameplates and clever tab targetting, you can control large packs fairly well. Of course, you'll have to work a lot harder to achieve the same thing a Paladin does just by hitting Consecrate, and you will need more lead time. Keep in mind also that it's not just AoE Mangle, it's AoE Maul as well.

"Shared cooldowns" are definitely a concern if we end up needing to use it for two different effects in the same encounter. But (as much as we like to complain about it), I don't think fear is a prevalent enough mechanic to worry about (in TBC we had Nightbane .. and Archimonde ... I think that was it?).

So then it comes down to using it for AoE threat, or saving it for the Last Stand effect. And of course it will hurt if there ends up being an encounter where we need to use it for both, but I suppose that tradeoff will have to be made. It doesn't seem likely that they are going to drastically alter the core skill design at this stage (i.e. splitting it up or somehow implementing separate cooldowns for its components).

For trash, you should be able to use it on every second or third pull. There's also 3 min Challenging Roar in case things get hairy.

tlbj6142 · 09/17/08, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by seminarca

For trash, you should be able to use it on every second or third pull. There's also 3 min Challenging Roar in case things get hairy.

One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??). That is more than enough time to take out 1 mob while building threat on 2-3 more. So, that allows us to devote some one-on-one time to the root'd mob when he breaks free.

• sadris · 09/17/08, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??). That is more than enough time to take out 1 mob while building threat on 2-3 more. So, that allows us to devote some one-on-one time to the root'd mob when he breaks free.

CC doesn't really work in a raid environment where (trash) mobs can one-shot healers if you are incapacitated when the time comes to reapply it.

Nokiya · 09/17/08, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

The difference I'm estimating for cat is around 3750 dps in rares and 5100 in epics. That's a 33.3% dps upgrade to epics. I suppose that might be around the same relative gain as BC, but 1250 sure sounds like a large gain.

I have been looking over your spreadsheet Mijae, and I'm a bit worried that I have chosen the wrong professions to get that 4000-5000 dps you've posted. You are using Enchanting and Jewelcrafting, which obviously for dps look to be the best professions with assault on rings and the emerald boar, possibly the best for tanking as well with the 24 stam ring enchant and prismatic gems and possibly a JC-only tanking trinket that will be added before launch (only seeing rare JC-bop atm). Granted, there may be some amazing pre-raid Leatherworking sets that will be added (they might already be but I can not seem to find any as of now) But I doubt Leatherworking and Engineering (or any other profession for that matter) will scale as well as Enchanting and JC will throughout WotLK, does anyone have any information or source (or just opinion) that can contradict this?

Also, your 80 Rare - Dps shows 4pct6... and many bt-swp items, and sadly it seems those are best-in-slot for pre-raid wotlk dps (and currently being resto in end-game raiding, it will be very hard to persuade my raid leader that I will be spending tokens on off-spec because it will help me in the expansion), will those items be the only way for us as Cat form Feral druids to be viable in Naxx-10 before drops? Will we have to come in as Bear-tanks to N-10, pray to get more drops than the other feral druids/rogues in the 2 other N-10 groups to become cat druids in Naxx-25.

This has me a bit worried about being pre 10 man ready, and might be what everyone is worried about with itemization.

Astrylian · 09/17/08, 11:04 PM

Ballpark, what do the simulators/spreadsheets say for best enchant for Cat at 70 in 3.0? Using napkin math and Toskk's, it looks like Executioner may be better than Mongoose at the high end, even without using FB, which was a little surprising. I just picked up a 2nd Stanchion tonight, in case Cat and Bear want different enchants in 3.0, and it looks like they may.

Neddie · 09/18/08, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??).

Personally, the type of AOE pull that worries me is the type where casting roots on 1 mob just won't cut it -- waves like the ones in Hyjal, the groups in Supremus' ramp area, the ones on the way to bloodboil, etc. Those are the groups that paladins are ideal for. Warriors can do decently well with them now using thunderclap, and will do even better when they get Damage Shield. Not to mention that they can much more safely let people AOE around them if they use vigilance and intervene with Safeguard. I don't know a lot about Death Knights (beta key plzkthx), but it sounds like they'll have good AOE tanking too.

Challenging roar on a 3m cooldown is nice, but AFAIK it isn't an AOE taunt, it just means that the mobs are locked to you for 6s, so if they can't be AOEd down in 6s they're running for the mages/warlocks.

Having said that, I think we also get Nature's Grasp with a 100% proc rate, so on 5-ish pulls we can pull with nature's grasp on, wait till a mob hits us, then back away from it. Chances are the first ones to hit you from a big group will be the melee mobs.

I guess I just have 'grass is greener' envy. I wish we had the AoE tanking niche that prot paladins have. I wish we had the spell tools that warriors have, with a silence-pull (gag order + heroic throw), spell reflect, shield slam, and imp defensive stance. I wish we had the tools to deal with fear that warriors do. I wish we had the magic tanking abilities that Death Knights will have. Basically I wish we had a real niche. Without a niche it's hard to believe that there will be much demand for ferals, at least as main tanks.

Cuer · 09/18/08, 12:34 AM

The professions are not done yet; it's hard to say which one will shape up to be the best. But given some of the tidbits we've seen, such as the Leatherworking Fur Lining - Attack Power wrist enchant, there are likely to be solid bonuses for any of the crafting professions.

As for getting items for both bear and cat form, so far there are at least 2 armor tokens for tier7-10 man available, purchased with Emblem of Heroism, which come from heroics and Naxx 10 man. Anyone interested in gearing up multiple sets of gear can run plenty of heroics once they hit 80, as can anyone, to get a jump on having level 80 epics ready for entry into Naxx. Of course, there are other generic ilevel 200 epics available for purchase with those emblems, as well.

• sadris · 09/18/08, 12:41 AM

It was recently posted that the BS socket wont stack with the LW fur. This hasn't been confirmed by an external source yet, though.