Pharmacon

Being that it is a spell (can't cast when silenced, can be resisted) pretty much has to be based on spell crit. 22% I would assume is raid buffed, although does still seem a bit high for feral gear unless you are stacking a lot of crit rating.

The threat/damage modeling would be done on something around 35-40 seconds depending on how close you want to push the chance of letting the debuff fall as it is on a 6 second CD but has a 40 second duration. You won't be refreshing it every CD as there's much better ways to spend your GCDs. But 30 seconds isn't unreasonable either. I know I start refreshing debuffs more frequently once I have a nice threat lead.

 

• Astrylian

Not usually. FFF > Lacerate > Swipe for single target threat, even in Sunwell gear. With scaling, that may change, but that's how it is now, and looks like how it'll be for quite a while at 80.

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kalbear

I do it every 30 seconds because currently it cannot be cast if it's up; I'll consistently get the 'more powerful spell in effect" message.

22% crit is probably reasonable raid buffed. Between moonkin aura, int, kings and random things that buff spell crit 22% seems close to reasonable, if a bit high. I'm just going off a night of raiding's overall value.

 

• sordee

I'm a terrible druid, and on my respec right before my first jaunt into tanking BT this weekend, I picked up OOC (along with Thick Hide which was the main reason for the respec).

Why? Because I hate dps cooldown based trinkets and rather prefer passive procs. And as it was, my first two weeks with berserk I was using it primarily to break fear/CC. Yes, OOC and its current proc rate is a must for Cat form.

As for threat boost on a boss? Didn't really have problem. Trash? A bit of trouble on the Ret Pallies. But for Mother and Illidan (the two I MT'd for) I had no problem with building a pretty decent threat lead within 5-6 seconds. (Yay for being the new tank with 0 Resistance gear)

 

Drashian

On the "more powerful" bug, has anyone tested if it's because of temporary AP buffs? Since FFF damage scales with AP, it's possible that the "power" level of it is still determined by AP at casting too (like Rip), even though it doesn't actually affect the debuff portion.

 

halmmar

I did, and I could overwrite it (alone in raid).

 

cana

I just did some tests on the "more powerful" bug with FFF.
Obviously, if a Moonkin with imp. FF sets their FF, we can't overwrite it. That has been the case since imp. FF exists, we all know it.
As halmmar stated in the post above, AP has nothing to do with it, I tested onUse trinkets as well as buffs (agi/str Totem, Unleashed Rage, MotW), I could always overwrite my own FF.

Now to the part where Blizzard messed it up:
Since 3.0, a Shadowpriest's "Misery" debuff increases SpellHitChanceTaken by 3%, the same way imp. FF does.
That is where the "more powerful spell active" error comes from, but interesting enough, this is what I noticed while testing:

- If your FFF is up BEFORE Misery lands on the mob, you CAN'T OVERWRITE FFF.
- If you apply FFF to a mob AFTER Misery is already up, you CAN OVERWRITE it.

Edit: Oh, would be cool if anyone could post this as a bug report in the US Forums. Since I have an EU-Account I can't do it myself, and EU-Forums proved to be as effective for bug reports as writing it to a piece of paper and flushing it down the toilet ;/

 

kalbear

Posted here, cana. Thanks for the testing.

 

tlbj6142

Looks like someone needs to update their FAQ with this information.

 

nightcrowler

I'm looking into modify my simulation taking into account that FFF is based on spell crit. I'm under the impression that the FFF is due to a self interference because sometimes I get the error also being on myself. I'm thinking that you can't refresh it if it crit, but I need to test it.

As for aggro, I don't have a single piece of T6 so no bonus on swipe, but yesterday I've tanked all BT till Illidari Council and never had aggro problem, obviosly I've tanked all with dps gear on trashes. I also had our top dps paladin spam consacration and his other aoe ability. What I really want to say is: when we "really" lose aggro?
If I see my mob turning around to the ret pally, it's a problem? No, taunt it back.
If I miss some mob at the beginning it's a problem? No, Challenging Roar.
Also you usually have other tanks with you, but with the CD lowered on our taunting ability, the greater range and so on, I never had a single time where a mob killed someone because I lose aggro and that it's enough for me.

 

david0925

I just want to emphasize on what nightcrowler said.

Unless your RL wants to know how much threat you can absolutely put out for some reason, having sufficient aggro over other DPS so they are never in danger of pulling aggro is enough. I ended up doing a lot of swipe spamming and refreshing lacerate and FFF on just expiring because Swipe does more damage despite the lower TPS, and damage increase (however insignificant it can be) will shorten boss fights, which will contribute to raid success.

Similar cases with gemming, if your threat is fine you should not try to push for bigger "epeen" threat numbers: having 50k or 50 million threat lead lead up to the same result, so focus on not dying is a lot more important.

Maniq is my hero

 

Boevis

While I'm prone to agree that we don't have aggro issues, I wish to emphasize something david just said.

Threat is less of an issue, survivability is based more on spec and gear than skill (especially for ferals), what we are most likely to be judged on is Damage output. If one tank is doing 2k and the other does 1750, then it's pretty obvious who is tanking, assuming all buffs/debuffs are available elsewhere and there's no fight mechanics that make one superior to others (Fear will not be an important mechanic in BC - blizzard)

 

cana

I spent some time at the dummies, trying to reproduce self-interference with FFF by adjusting several stats by changing weapons.
I always started out of combat, with a non-debuffed dummie, stats I tested were Spellpower, Hit, Crit, AP, ArP.
Taking into concideration that FFF can't be reapplied if misery is up before FFF and nightcrowlers assumption concerning crits, I tested everything with a starting FFF-crit and non-crit, for the latter, reapplying FFF until 1 after I crit again.
Every stat was tested vs. every other, both directions (Spellpower vs. AP, AP vs. Spellpower, etc.).

There was no single occurance of that "more powerful" error in 45 minutes of testing.

 

• moz

Not a chance on a single target mob, unless you're AFK or people start hitting it before you hit it. Threat is pretty much a non-issue (I'm speaking in the context of Sunwell geared tanks/DPS mainly, but it applies in general). Actually, on small packs it's not an issue either unless you just tunnel vision one mob the whole time. Having Berserk to open up a big lead on boss fights or manage bigger pulls is very nice. Fights where you are going second and need to catch up (Bloodboil, Twins etc.) is trivial now with Berserk. Pretty happy with the utility it provides. As for that CC-breaking Maul glyph? Love it.

 

Rorgg

The only class I've seen that even hinted at a chance of pulling aggro are the frickin' Arms Warriors. Arms got a gigantic PvE buff with 3.0 that allows them to fire off their Overpowers and Executes a lot more often, in addition to their Mortal Strikes. A crit Execute early enough (say, right about when they're hitting their rage cap thanks to critting a MS or Overpower) can put up a pretty silly burst DPS amount.

I've got a 70 Arms Warrior with mostly greens and no epics except for the axesmith crafted one, and he's doing stupid DPS in groups compared to guys I raid with.

 

◊ Regen

Unless Arms warriors do more threat than dual glaives warriors, rogues, and legendary hunters on a demon I highly doubt they are the exception.

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Meridia

I can actually attest to that, but only for AoE packs. I have an Arms warrior and have pulled aggro a few times in heroics vs very capable tanks. Trinket, Recklessness, Sweeping Strikes, Bladestorm is absolutely ridiculous AoE damage and if done too early will definitely pull.

 

sadistic

a) The arms warrs that do too much dps atm (on bosses) is dw/arms (esp with glaives) due to rolling deepwounds (read 4k-5k dps on brutallus for instance) And even then they don't pull aggro.

b) As far as I know you don't get rage from (critting) special attacks. Thus making them incapable of doing a crit execute too early (will need one swing-cycle at absolute bare minimum). Which means tank has a short while to get some threat.


Now, for the reck-ss-bladestorm bomb, I will ofc not argue, but that would be the warriors own damn fault.

 

Grubsnik

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Ghostcrawler - Any news?

Hmm, seems blizzard, or at least GC doesn't think that the armor trinkets and other jewelry is a must-have for druids.

The armor formula for "longer life" vs. a 83 boss is basically "armor increase/16635.5 * 100 = increase in time to live(TTL) in %" (Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)
Ignoring procs on the armor trinkets we get:
For defenders code we get 850 * 1.1 * 4.7 = 4394.5 => 4394.5/16635.5 ~ +26.4% TTL.
For offering of sacrifice we get: 550 * 1.1 * 4.7 => 17% TTL.

Since DR has been instituted for dodge, that means we can roughly assume than any increase in raw dodge% yields the same increase in TTL.

Other "tanking" trinkets in WotLK includes:
Darkmoon Card: Greatness gives ~4.5% dodge from agi.
Valor Medal of the First War gives ~3.2% dodge, but is controllable.
Essence of Gossamer gives +111 stam and a 140 damage shield for 10 secs on a 2% proc chance.

So even ignoring the fact that both armor trinkets have better on use, than most of these trinkets, they are still ahead by a landslide.

Anyone able to raise GC on the Beta boards and disabuse him of his silly notion about the value of armor?

 

PrayForDeath

Since healing power and spell power are now unified, does Nurturing Instinct benefit our damage spells now as well as heals? I was thinking about Hurricane as feral since cats don't have any AoE.

 

Mielikinna

@PrayforDeath
The talent clearly says "Increases your Healing Spells" - the bonus spellpower only effects spells that are heals - Lifebloom, Rejuvenation, Regrowth, Healing Touch.

*edit*
Rhaegal says it better

 

Rhaegal

Healing power and spell power haven't completely been unified. There are plenty of abilities, Nurturing Instinct being one of them, that only adds to one or the other. Improved Tree of Life is another. Try taking the talent and opening up your character panel. You'll notice higher healing spell power than damage spell power, as the tooltips for these are still separate.

Stand back! I'm going to try SCIENCE!

 

• Daboran

You beat me to it - I read that and instinctively didn't believe what he's saying. It felt obvious that armor is ridiculously good for Feral boss tanking wherever it's itemized but I didn't realize just how so.

 

TrevvyTrev

His notion is "silly" only if you read more into it than what he said. First, he was answering a question about armor trinkets, so it's wrong to say that he thinks armor isn't valuable on "other jewelry" because that wasn't part of the issue he was addressing. Second, the context was in terms of itemization and upgrades, with the OP suggesting that once a feral druid gets an armor trinket, they won't ever upgrade to a non-armor trinket, and the relative rarity of armor trinkets thus keeps bears from ever upgrading them once they get them (unless they are capped). It was the "all-or-nothing" idea that if a trinket doesn't have armor on it then it can't possibly be worth equipping on a bear that GC was addressing, and he only suggested that things weren't that extreme.

It's especially premature to reach this conclusion without having any real sense of itemization beyond Naxx, or of the nature of boss abilities. While shear-style mechanics and crushing blows may be a thing of the past, that doesn't mean that bosses are simply going to pump out nothing but physical damage melee attacks and spell damage that is simply resistable. There could be more mechanics similar the arcane strike proc from the scryer SSO trinket (does arcane damage, but can be dodged, parried, etc.) which heavily would favor avoidance trinkets/stats over armor, for example. It actually is not unreasonable to expect design to go this way -- armor is indeed fantastic for feral tanking, which means that encounters will have to de-emphasize it somewhat so that the less armored tanks will be able to handle the content. In other words, without crushing blows and shears, and with armor being so good, other tanks would be at a disadvantage to feral tanks. Mechanics that favor avoidance give bears a reason to care about stats other than armor, and make the other tanks not feel so bad about not being able to match feral druid armor levels.

Finally, as with all things involving itemization, it's your overall stats that matter, not necessarily what you have in each slot. If you have rings with lots of armor and not much else then you can afford (or even desire) trinkets with not much armor and more of the other stats so that overall you reach a balance.

 

manapaws

Well posted Trev, are you GC in disguise? :P

You're quite right, the value of armor (and every stat for that matter) is more of a function of what's incoming. If 20,000 Physical damage is incoming with each swing, armour is probably your best stat. If 20,000 Shadow damage is incoming, however, I'd much rather be wearing a stamina trinket.

Beyond Naxx, Sartharian, Malygos there are still 2 unknown things:
1) What style encounters there'll be - what type of damage they'll deal, and how they'll deal it.
2) What gear itemisation will be available.

Both of those things need to be known before any attribute can be correctly weighed, in my opinion.