Finally, as with all things involving itemization, it's your overall stats that matter, not necessarily what you have in each slot. If you have rings with lots of armor and not much else then you can afford (or even desire) trinkets with not much armor and more of the other stats so that overall you reach a balance.
Sorry, that's not true.
Armor is simply better per itemization point than any other stat until you reach the armor cap. In theory you could make an argument that reaching 80% of the armor cap would be sufficient (since you'd get capped via inspiration) but even then, it's still the best for reducing damage.
And yes, you can come up with plenty of fights and mechanics where this isn't true. The fact still remains that the majority of fights we know about are physical based, the majority of all fights in the game have been physical based, and that tanks are balanced primarily around how much incoming physical damage they take. And while you can create scenarios where one tank is armor capped but has no dodge while the other tank has a balance of armor and dodge and show how the balance is better, the truth is that this is a bad strawman.
A trinket that provides 850 armor is going to simply be the best trinket for bears until they are armor capped or until a trinket with more armor comes along. This isn't overvaluing armor; this is valuing armor correctly.
Since healing power and spell power are now unified, does Nurturing Instinct benefit our damage spells now as well as heals? I was thinking about Hurricane as feral since cats don't have any AoE.
It seems like to me it would take an awful lot of spell power to make Hurricane hit as hard as just switching to bear and Swiping. In cat gear, your Swipes should do very respectable aoe damage. There have been numerous anecdotal accounts of people using it for aoe leveling. Glyph'd Maul is also nice if you watch threat carefully. If it's up, Berserk is also very nice (3 target, no cooldown Mangles). Ferals aren't in nearly as bad a shape for aoe damage as we used to be.
Bonus: you're in bear form already if you get aggro!
Last edited by Micrurus : 10/30/08 at 3:04 PM.
Reason: Fix capitalization for Swipe.
There could be more mechanics similar the arcane strike proc from the scryer SSO trinket (does arcane damage, but can be dodged, parried, etc.) which heavily would favor avoidance trinkets/stats over armor, for example. It actually is not unreasonable to expect design to go this way -- armor is indeed fantastic for feral tanking, which means that encounters will have to de-emphasize it somewhat so that the less armored tanks will be able to handle the content. In other words, without crushing blows and shears, and with armor being so good, other tanks would be at a disadvantage to feral tanks. Mechanics that favor avoidance give bears a reason to care about stats other than armor, and make the other tanks not feel so bad about not being able to match feral druid armor levels.
On the flip side of that coin depending on exactly how the DR is calculated this type of design could put us at a severe disadvantage as tanks. If a fight requires the tank to gear for max avoidance vs max mitigation we can only compete of the DR and avoidance formula's are tweaked so we can achieve a similar dodge value compared to the dodge/parry/miss of other tanks from a similar number of item points spent on avoidance. Considering the other tanks can capitalize on the fact that item budget favors spread stats vs 1 or 2 high stats on an item they can get much more avoidance from a single item. At this point I'm not entirely convinced the formula's are balanced to put us on a similar avoidance level with the other tanks after DR and stat allocation differences are taken into account.
edit: Good news from GC about savage roar stacking with UR and other 10% ap buffs.
Q u o t e:
While we're talking about savage roar, could we get the official word on why its not stacking with Unleashed Rage, Aboms Might, or TSA? Many of us have been reporting it as a bug forever in the beta, and without blue clarification its kind of hard to know.
GC:
Yes it should stack. I believe this is fixed, though I don't recall in which build.
Armor is simply better per itemization point than any other stat until you reach the armor cap. In theory you could make an argument that reaching 80% of the armor cap would be sufficient (since you'd get capped via inspiration) but even then, it's still the best for reducing damage.
That's not what I was saying. Saying that armor is worth more than other stats per itemization point is not the same as saying that it's the only stat you need to worry about or that anything without armor isn't an upgrade. To use an extreme example, you don't necessarily want to load up on items with armor and no other stats even if you aren't capped. Being armor capped and having 10k health and no avoidance would make you a sucky tank. I'm not saying that's likely or even possible, but I bring it up only to illustrate the concept.
So, in light of that, what I was getting at is that if you have five "armor slots" -- 2 rings, neck, and trinkets -- then the operative factor is the *total* value in those slots, in terms of upgrading. If you have a total of 1000 armor 100 stamina and 50 agi in those slots, then going to 1500 armor, 110 stamina and 55 agi would be an "upgrade." It's possible to upgrade your total stats even if you downgrade one or more slots in one area, provided that it allows you to reallocate. In short, just because the armor isn't on the trinkets doesn't necessarily mean it's not available. You could possibly get a ring with more armor and less stamina and avoidance and then change trinkets to one with more stamina and avoidance, and end up with more total stats than you had before. Thus, it isn't true that it won't ever be beneficial to upgrade from a trinket with armor on it to one with less or no armor. It depends on what other upgrades you can get to go along with it.
It seems like to me it would take an awful lot of spell power to make Hurricane hit as hard as just switching to bear and Swiping. In cat gear, your Swipes should do very respectable aoe damage. There have been numerous anecdotal accounts of people using it for aoe leveling. Glyph'd Maul is also nice if you watch threat carefully. If it's up, Berserk is also very nice (3 target, no cooldown Mangles). Ferals aren't in nearly as bad a shape for aoe damage as we used to be.
Bonus: you're in bear form already if you get aggro!
My experience in the past few weeks of AOE fests in BT, MH and Sunwell have shown that for me Hurricane is better DPS whether or not I swap over to my spell power staff. Hurricane suffers from the aoe cap, but hits for more and more often. I also find that I can get rage starved pretty easily when I'm not taunting a couple mobs off the pallies, whereas hurricane is infinitely sustainable with Omen procs.
Either way though, it's not where we shine and this is all obsolete content for now. For what it's worth I do feel more *useful* when I'm taunting a mob or two and swipe spamming.
Trevvy, what you're not considering is item budget. With diminishing returns on dodge, it is literally impossible within the constraints of their itemization system for a dodge trinket to beat an armor trinket that's remotely near it in item level, at 70 we saw an increase of 64 ilevel from vendor epics to KJ, PreBC was an increase of 32. Raising the ilevel of the Valor Medal by 96 gives a 4.6% trinket, going up by 128 gives a 5% trinket.
I'm incapable of figuring out how they got a 200 ilevel on the darkmoon card, but going with the same ratios, a 328 ilevel version would provide a ~7.2% dodge trinket.
While I am certain there will be fights where a high Stam trinket, or a trinket that combines various defensive stats will be preferable due to the need for magic mitigation, I remain just as certain that physical mitigation will remain the primary requirement for boss fights which is why we see a significant homogenization of tank armor. Armor trinkets are irreplaceable as part of our average tanking set.
Thus, it isn't true that it won't ever be beneficial to upgrade from a trinket with armor on it to one with less or no armor. It depends on what other upgrades you can get to go along with it.
I can't see how a better armor neck is going to make me use an inferior armor trinket before I cap armor without Inspiration. So far the only interesting argument for DPS stats on tank gear is GC's suggestion that DPS checks in Wrath will be balanced around the tank contributing a significant portion of a DPS class's damage.
In short, just because the armor isn't on the trinkets doesn't necessarily mean it's not available. You could possibly get a ring with more armor and less stamina and avoidance and then change trinkets to one with more stamina and avoidance, and end up with more total stats than you had before. Thus, it isn't true that it won't ever be beneficial to upgrade from a trinket with armor on it to one with less or no armor. It depends on what other upgrades you can get to go along with it.
And I'm saying that as long as you're not armor capped (pre or post inspiration) armor is still going to be more valuable. Kazanity on the forums explained this well with an example, but unless you're giving up more in itemization to get the armor in a very large way armor beats anything. In your example, it's better to stay with the trinket that provides armor and go with an upgrade at neck than it is to juggle around the trinket, because you'll have more armor. Even if you lose stamina and avoidance. It's just that good.
The armor trinket beats the dodge trinket (if it existed) and the stam trinket. I'm saying that you wouldn't want to juggle anything; you'd want to just keep piling on armor. That's how good it is.
Yes, you can make up dumb examples where a tank has armor cap and no stamina, but let's not go there, okay? (I already made that argument and pointed out its flaw) There's no practical way for this to occur.
It seems like to me it would take an awful lot of spell power to make Hurricane hit as hard as just switching to bear and Swiping. In cat gear, your Swipes should do very respectable aoe damage. There have been numerous anecdotal accounts of people using it for aoe leveling. Glyph'd Maul is also nice if you watch threat carefully. If it's up, Berserk is also very nice (3 target, no cooldown Mangles). Ferals aren't in nearly as bad a shape for aoe damage as we used to be.
Bonus: you're in bear form already if you get aggro!
We usually clear SW trash with 3 tanks, but since 3.0 came out we only really need 2 tanks now, 1 of which is a paladin and the other a Warrior. What I've been doing is staying in Cat gear and staying bear for all the trash and just swipe away, BUT I have the warrior cast vigilance on me, so threat isn't an issue if I stay on his target.
We usually clear SW trash with 3 tanks, but since 3.0 came out we only really need 2 tanks now, 1 of which is a paladin and the other a Warrior. What I've been doing is staying in Cat gear and staying bear for all the trash and just swipe away, BUT I have the warrior cast vigilance on me, so threat isn't an issue if I stay on his target.
It's not a problem if you pull trash in cat gear either.
I realize maintaining threat is trivial at level 70. I don't think it will be that easy at 80. Consider that we did just buff boss armor, which is a nerf to bear threat. We also designed Naxx to be pretty easy in part because early Karazhan was not. But that doesn't mean you'll waltz through all the Lich King raid content. As a secondary (or tertiary or whatever I'm on now) point, also remember that we did buff tank damage. Part of that is because we want tanks to contribute damage. The days of tanks stacking nothing but effective health and relying on the rest of the group for dps are over. You might find an enrage timer that you can't hit because your tank's dps is so paltry.
And I'm saying that as long as you're not armor capped (pre or post inspiration) armor is still going to be more valuable.
While I agree with you that armor will still be our best stat, it leaves me wondering if the calculations on this were performed with wotlk numbers or bc numbers?
More specifically, mainly crushing blows no longer need to be considered. Additionally:
Stoneskin totem adding 1150 armor + talented (No SoE as had DK's horn in the group)
Alot more expertise itemised on 80 gear (potentially less times attacked over a duration)
Definitely get access to a - attspeed modifier since multiple classes have them
Definitely get access to a -ap modifier now since multiple classes have them
Percent Damge Reducers, such as Priest's Grace (-3%)
Im not a mathematician by any means, but most of the above seems to suggest armor still is important, of course, but perhaps not as important as in BC. This theory sits well with Oiysters GC quote above.
Furthermore, there was fundamental shifts in mechanics between vanilla and bc, so wouldn't be too surprising in the bc to wotlk transition.
While I agree with you that armor will still be our best stat, it leaves me wondering if the calculations on this were performed with wotlk numbers or bc numbers?
Armor isn't required necessarily, but it's still best. None of those things you mentioned have any bearing on whether more armor is better than more stamina; the best armor trinket still reduces more damage by itself than stamina does, and it gives you more time to live since it's a greater reduction in damage than overall HP gain.
GC's quote may be true, in which case the answer is simple; get a cat staff instead of a bear staff. Or change trinkets/rings/amulets/cloaks, which will have a bigger effect on threat than going from PvP to PvE. The notion that PvE gear would be required because it has slightly more threat than the PvP gear while ignoring the other parts is somewhat absurd, and even in those cases armor would be more valuable.
Im not a mathematician by any means, but most of the above seems to suggest armor still is important, of course, but perhaps not as important as in BC. This theory sits well with Oiysters GC quote above.
Furthermore, there was fundamental shifts in mechanics between vanilla and bc, so wouldn't be too surprising in the bc to wotlk transition.
There have been no fundamental changes to druids that require different gear than before. Against a pure physical mob you would be stupid to use anything other than high armor accessories once you have enough health to not get insta-gibbed.
The post Felbear linked above is a little ways down the page and was done by me. To summarize, the problem is that Armor is better for increasing your burst survivability, reducing your total incoming DPS taken, and increasing your time-to-live with any amount of incoming HPS. This is not how it is for most tanks: For a warrior or paladin, armor is good for time-to-live, great for reducing incoming DPS taken, but not nearly as good as Stamina for increasing your burst survivability. So you have to make tradeoffs. With bears, there is no tradeoff. Armor trinkets are simply far and away better than anything else available.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Im just curious to know if im doing my threat rotation right. Ive specced into bear and here is what I do when I am doing single target threat:
FFF>Taunt>Mangle>2xlacerate>Mangle>x2Lacerate>Mangle>Rinse and repeat
That is until I hit 5 lacerates. Thats when I begin to Swipe more instead of lacerate. Only lacerating to reapply it making sure the 5 stacks stay up. I also through mauls in there every chance I get since it is not on the GCD. This is in an ulimited rage situation.
Any suggestions on what to change. Or if someone can just direct me to a post that talks about this. I would be greatful.
Trevvy, what you're not considering is item budget. With diminishing returns on dodge, it is literally impossible within the constraints of their itemization system for a dodge trinket to beat an armor trinket that's remotely near it in item level, at 70 we saw an increase of 64 ilevel from vendor epics to KJ, PreBC was an increase of 32. Raising the ilevel of the Valor Medal by 96 gives a 4.6% trinket, going up by 128 gives a 5% trinket. While I am certain there will be fights where a high Stam trinket, or a trinket that combines various defensive stats will be preferable due to the need for magic mitigation, I remain just as certain that physical mitigation will remain the primary requirement for boss fights which is why we see a significant homogenization of tank armor. Armor trinkets are irreplaceable as part of our average tanking set.
You're making a couple of mistaken assumptions here. First is that the non-armor trinket is "remotely near" the armor trinket in iLevel. That's exactly the assumption that GC was attempting to debunk. The OP had said that a bear will never upgrade a trinket with armor to one without, unless they remained armor capped. Never. This means that even if a bear had a green trinket with armor on it and an iLevel of 80, it would not be possible for them to switch to a purple trinket with an iLevel of 300 and consider that an upgrade unless the epic had equal or more armor. All GC was saying is that armor is not the only useful tank stat, even if it is a "favorite" tank stat for all the perfectly valid reasons that have been discussed already.
The second problem is that you're assuming the only tradeoff is armor vs. dodge. The non-armor (or less armor) trinket can have dodge, AP, sta, hit, expertise, some kind of crazy on-use, etc. Bears need armor. Lots of it. But it still is only part of this nutritious breakfast.
Finally, as you pointed out, there may be situations where a bear tank might find the non-armor trinket useful. This means that if that trinket drops then the bears will loot it. The original assertion was that once a druid gets some relatively decent armor trinket then they are basically done for the expansion unless Blizzard adds even more armor trinkets. It's not the end of the world itemization-wise if bears are looting trinkets and using different ones in different fights. They still have some reason to care when tank trinkets drop.
Originally Posted by Jone
I can't see how a better armor neck is going to make me use an inferior armor trinket before I cap armor without Inspiration. So far the only interesting argument for DPS stats on tank gear is GC's suggestion that DPS checks in Wrath will be balanced around the tank contributing a significant portion of a DPS class's damage.
Here's how. WARNING: SUPER SIMPLIFICATION AHEAD. You have a current trinket with 200 armor and 0 sta. Your current neck is 0 armor and 50 stamina. Your other trinket is something awesome that you don't want to upgrade. You aren't armor capped yet. Total stats: 200 armor, 50 sta.
You go to a zone with new drops. During the clear, a neck drops with 300 armor, 0 sta, and some other crap. Also, a trinket drops with 100 armor and 100 sta. Here, upgrading to the new neck and the new trinket gives a stat total of 400 armor, 100 sta, and "some other crap." You have more of *everything* by upgrading to both of these, even though you are using an "inferior armor trinket." Note that if you say, "I'll just upgrade the neck and keep my better armor trinket", you end up with 100 more armor, but 100 less stamina. That may not be a worthwhile tradeoff, depending on how much health you already had. As I said earlier, an armor-capped tank with 10,000 health is going to get worked. Armor isn't the only tank stat that has a "target". You shoot for as much armor as you can get, obviously, but you do so while mindful of the fact that you also want a certain amount of health, avoidance, and threat generation too. If the other categories are lacking, then you may still become a better tank overall by taking a slight dip in armor to boost the other ones up to where they need to be.
Now of course in reality things won't be as simplified as I just made them, but that's what spreadsheets and ratingbuster and common sense come into play. The bottom line is that armor doesn't have to be on every trinket that bears use, provided that there is sufficient armor available elsewhere or if there is a boost to several other stats. To paraphrase something I tell my hunter brethren, your job isn't to have as much armor on your trinkets as possible. Your job is to help get things killed, primarily (but not exclusively) by holding aggro and not dying. We have to see the forest for the trees.
Im just curious to know if im doing my threat rotation right. Ive specced into bear and here is what I do when I am doing single target threat:
FFF>Taunt>Mangle>2xlacerate>Mangle>x2Lacerate>Mangle>Rinse and repeat
That is until I hit 5 lacerates. Thats when I begin to Swipe more instead of lacerate. Only lacerating to reapply it making sure the 5 stacks stay up. I also through mauls in there every chance I get since it is not on the GCD. This is in an ulimited rage situation.
Any suggestions on what to change. Or if someone can just direct me to a post that talks about this. I would be greatful.
A) Taunt? Taunt does absolutely nothing if the mob is already on you and is staying on you. It doesn't generate any threat.
B) Mangle>FFF>Lacerate>Mangle>Lacerate>FFF>Mangle>Lacerate>Lacerate>REPEAT, swapping Lacerates for Swipes when Lacerate is at 5 stacks and has more than 5sec remaining on it, and you have 4T6 and Feral Instinct.
Great discussion, but I doubt there won't be stuff like the Commendation, or fights which will require you to sacrifice a few slots to resistance or other gear. Ergo, while any trinket, neck or ring with Armour on it will certainly be of disproportionately high value to druid tanks v.v. other tanks, I see nothing in Boevis' argument that leads me to want to ignore tanking-type items for those slots that don't have Armour. There'll just be a smaller chance of them being an all-out all-purposes-all-the-time upgrade for me as compared to DK, War and Pally tanks.
GC might not have a fully developed understanding of just how good Armour is for Bears in those slots, but that doesn't invalidate his argument?
Trev I realize that that was an over simplification to prove a point but it was also taken to an absurd extreme. Not only are you proposeing an extream case to prove an example of why a druid would take the low armor item but it is also the reverse of what we've seen so far in live and beta. Your example shows a huge boost in other stats vs a modest loss of armor. However most examples of items we have show a modest boost in other stats vs a huge loss in armor.
I agree if there are enough other stats it can outweigh a loss in armor value. I have made that choice on live many times as I geared up through the tiers. However with the amounts of armor on trinkets and necks it would have to be a lot of stats to take a stat item over an armor or armor+stat item. Quite frankly we can get enough tanking stats from our gear that has armor regardless to be comfortable. Giving up 100 armor or so for upgraded stats would be one thing however I find it hard to believe that there would ever be a trinket that could prove to be a credible upgrade to the defenders code (850 armor) without having armor on it unless the item level was astronomically higher.
Part of the problem is that while other tank stats are of comparable value to us as to the other tanks armor, particularly on non leather slots, is nearly 3 times as valuable point for point. It would take an item of much much higher level to override that armor advantage.
I think after some testing that I have understood that the bug is probably due to a wrong buff stacking design:
those are my results:
- solo: I never had "a more powerfull spell is already active" bug, I've changed items, procs, everything I didn't have any problem, so it's not a self-interacting bug.
- group: when I have a moonkin applying ImpFF I had "a more powerfull spell is already active" bug. ImpFF is better obviosly but we should still be able to get the threat and damage of FFF (please report to beta forums).
- group: when I have a Shadowpriest proccing misery (i suppose it's called misery the +3% hit buff) I had "a more powerfull spell is already active" bug. This is a real bug, they are probably considering FFF<ImpFF<Misery, but misery doesn't give armor debuff so the should be really stacking (please report to beta forums).
Possible solution:
Make FFF works as 2 different ability, 1 for damage and threat and the other for armor debuff
Make ImpFF works as 2 different debuff, 1 for armor debuff and 1 for hit chance.
That will solve all stacking problem and the bug itself (I hope).
@Armor Trinket:
Armor is better than all also with a difference in iLevel but:
there are fights with bleeds, dots, magic damage that you need to survive.
What is real for threat generation is real for armor/stam and defensive stats in general, for istance I can see a chance to have bosses where an high dps and/or threat is needed or simply you can't have a chance to miss the boss (for istance special ability interruption or something like that) that way a trinket like shard of contempt will be better.
-Item value, simulated-
Bear stats with full t7.10, trinket, full buffed, flasked and so on.
Not considered: attack speed reduction due to Infected wounds and inspiration procs. The boss is only autoattacking and hitting for 40k with a 2sec swing timer before mitigation and parry.
-----------------------------------
Bear (crit% vs. a boss (-4.4% added)): 37.2895%
Bear (AP): 6636
Agility: 1249
Strengh: 686
Intellect: 379
Spirit: 357
Mana: 7220
Average MP5 In combat: 181, Average MP5 out of combat: 374
Expertise: 26
Hit: 1.58585%
Armor Penetration: 5.39126%
Haste (from equipment): 3.96462%
+weapon damage: 14
Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 12000
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 6447.59
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 29.7397%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 22%
Missed % (Total): 7.41415%
Dodged %: 0%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 7.25%
White bear: 0, Yellow bear: 2968.32
White bear: 0%
Mangle bear: 16.728%, Average Damage: 2474.98, Maul: 65.2974%, Average Damage: 4254.26, Lacerate: 13.0829%, Average Damage: 5094.13, Swipe: 3.15013% Average Damage: 602.893, FeralFairieFire: 1.74162% Average Damage: 525.16
**************************************
OTHER INFOS
Boss crit: 0%, Boss hit: 49.4525%, Boss miss: 50.5475%, Boss white dps: 2744.06, Boss average weapon speed: 1.91367 sec., Boss average parried attacks x sec: 8.40667%, Average Boss White DPS increase due to parry: 4.31629%
Chance to die: 0.165833% without heals in: 5 seconds.
_____________________________________
Defensive Stats after the buffs (vs. a raid boss, full stacked raid + Devotion Aura)
_______________________
Stamina (bear): 3231
Cat armor: 11163
Bear armor: 36854
Physical Damage Reduction Bear: 73.4532%
Defense: 412
Chance to be critical hit: 0%
Dodge (bear): 40.6721%
Miss: 9.88%
Total Avoidance (bear): 50.5521%
Total HP (bear): 40291
Tank Points (hp equivalent with 0% avoidance, 0% Damage Reduction and without parry from the boss) (bear): 294235
_____________________________________
Stats value:
(the stats value are compared with item budged into mind)
The stats are compared using ArEP (Armor Equivalent Points)
20 armor = 20 ArEP
2 agility = 8.4 ArEP
2 dodge rating = 7.2 ArEP
2 defense rating = 5.7 ArEP
2 expertise = 3.6 ArEP
3 stamina = 13.5 ArEP.
Last edited by nightcrowler : 10/31/08 at 6:03 AM.
Reason: added armor trinket part
Trev: you're completely overlooking item budget as well as creating an artificial scenario that favors your argument. Right now, the argument is realistically within one expansion, the chances of an Icecrown epic trinket with no armor can replace the blue one from heroics is not high (not saying it won't happen) because based on item level budgeting constraint it can only have so many stats, and those stats are not going to outweigh the armor
You might want to put some reserve there. WotLK will have no Weapon Stones or Oils.
Apparently, you can't apply TBC stones to weapons with too high level, so those'll become useless as well.
Mind you, it's not a huge difference for bears (other than swipe spam), but it'll impact cats.
Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.
Just for the heck of it, i also did the math for [Mark of Tyranny], it comes out at ~5.6% extra TTL, ahead of the darkmoon card, and any other tanking trinket found in Wrath...
If you factor in armor gained from Agi on the darkmoon card, you get another 1.1% TTL, but then you need to add in the 12 dodge rating from mark too....
You can argue all you want, but basically you have mitigation (armor), avoidance (dodge/miss) and durability (hitpoints).
If you go for high armor, you will become an easy to heal tank.
If you go for high avoidance, you become slave to the RNG, but have better odds against stacking debuffs.
If you go for high durability, you become a mana sponge.
10/30/08, 2:00 PM
