Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 135

Vaeys · 09/18/08, 12:56 AM

Looking at the new patche changes from mmo-champion, it looks like they've nerfed Berserk (no more mangle/maul hitting 3 targets), and got around the problem of Mangle vs Trauma by modifying Shred and Maul to deal increased damage when used on targets which would take increased damage from bleeds, and taking that functionality off Mangle.

Astrylian · 09/18/08, 12:56 AM

Several interesting changes for ferals in today's build... What I notice offhand:
-Mangle now just says it increases damage of bleeds; however Shred and Maul state that effects which increase the damage of bleeds also affect them. So basically Mangle and Trauma are identical effects now. Trauma Warrior = Mangle Bot. Yum.
-Predatory Instincts changed to -% damage from AoEs instead of % chance to avoid AoEs. So no more resistance to fears, stuns, etc.
-Imp LotP heals on yourself also restore 8% of your max mana. (Self-only)
-Faerie Fire (Feral) now deals [ 5% of AP + 1 ] damage and additional threat when used in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form.
-Brutal Impact also Reduces the CD of Bash by 30sec.
-Prolly something else I'm not noticing... Someone check if SR stacks with UR?

Mijae · 09/18/08, 1:02 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Ballpark, what do the simulators/spreadsheets say for best enchant for Cat at 70 in 3.0? Using napkin math and Toskk's, it looks like Executioner may be better than Mongoose at the high end, even without using FB, which was a little surprising. I just picked up a 2nd Stanchion tonight, in case Cat and Bear want different enchants in 3.0, and it looks like they may.

Mine currently shows them nearly equal at 70, with Mongoose very slightly ahead (2 dps - enough to just be error). If they happen to change Executioner to ArP rating (which makes more sense), Mongoose will be further ahead. For bear, I'd keep +35 agi since our attacks are too slow to keep Mongoose up.

Originally Posted by Nokiya

Also, your 80 Rare - Dps shows 4pct6... and many bt-swp items, and sadly it seems those are best-in-slot for pre-raid wotlk dps (and currently being resto in end-game raiding, it will be very hard to persuade my raid leader that I will be spending tokens on off-spec because it will help me in the expansion), will those items be the only way for us as Cat form Feral druids to be viable in Naxx-10 before drops? Will we have to come in as Bear-tanks to N-10, pray to get more drops than the other feral druids/rogues in the 2 other N-10 groups to become cat druids in Naxx-25.

This has me a bit worried about being pre 10 man ready, and might be what everyone is worried about with itemization.

While it does look like many of the end-game 70 epics will beat 80 blues, the differences isn't huge. Even some of the 70 badge gear is better than or equal to 80 blues, you should be able to get those easily. The lack of blue helms with meta sockets means even something as bad as [Helm of Assassination] is better than 80 blues.

Phorage · 09/18/08, 1:04 AM

Early morning misread. Delete

Brute · 09/18/08, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vaeys

Looking at the new patche changes from mmo-champion, it looks like they've nerfed Berserk (no more mangle/maul hitting 3 targets), and got around the problem of Mangle vs Trauma by modifying Shred and Maul to deal increased damage when used on targets which would take increased damage from bleeds, and taking that functionality off Mangle.

Wow. Not sure why they took the multi mob mangle/maul away. And on top of that havent returned the immunity to CC that it used to have.

They've added a mana return to ILotP...

seminarca · 09/18/08, 2:22 AM

The Berserk change is a good one. Although, after the last 2 rounds of nerfs it needs some love to bring it back up to par for being a 51 point talent. Merely mimicking Last Stand and Adrenaline Rush with a bonus Berserker Rage thrown in isn't quite enough, although at least it's now got some focus and direction for PvE Bear. If they changed it back to clearing/immunity to all CC effects, but kept the 3 minute cooldown, it would be sufficient to make it useful and balanced for PvE DPS, tanking AND PvP =x

Having said that, the lost AoE Maul/Mangle component should go elsewhere, King of the Jungle seems like a decent choice. While Enraged, it provides the same AoE Maul/Mangle effect that Berserk used to instead of (or in addition to) increasing damage by 15%.

Brute · 09/18/08, 2:37 AM

GhostCrawler has stated they arent finished with Berserk yet. Thats at least encouraging.

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> What is your Intention for Berserk?

Also Glyph of swipe has been removed and replaced with Glyph of Maul which causes your Maul to hit an additional target.

Daboran · 09/18/08, 3:59 AM

Whilst a lot of changes range from good to ok, there still seems to be a lack of direction overall, especially at the top of the talent tree. Not to mention the complete lack of improvements to AoE tanking now that multi-target improvements to Swipe have been removed.

Honestly, this homogenization of tanking classes seems to be affecting Feral playstyle negatively overall imo. There's no niche at present where you would prefer a Bear even marginally over another class. Whilst this may be the intention overall it's not the case with other tanking classes. With DK/Pali/Warrior they all have some advantage in a PvE raid context - and we know what that means when people start min-maxing their raids.

I am reminded of the phrase "a jack of all trades is a master of none".

More relevant to current content and the pre-release of talents - as I'm in a guild still working on Muru I'm very concerned about the changes (especially dodge) affecting my ability to tank all 3 of the adds there (afaik, Sunwell Radiance does not affect those adds)

One other thing I've noticed. Why still the (albeit slight) disparity between Demo Shout and Demo Roar? They are so close now, you may as well make them the same.

dukes · 09/18/08, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

One other thing I've noticed. Why still the (albeit slight) disparity between Demo Shout and Demo Roar? They are so close now, you may as well make them the same.

One is a level 77 skill while the other is a level 79 skill. I assume this means they have slightly different budgets in terms of effectiveness.

The bleed changes, iLotP, FFF and Brutal Impact changes are really nice, now we just need a final version of Berserk and possibly some splitting of cat/bear talents to give a bit more speciality to each spec. If they split 1 or 2 of the 5 point talents into pure cat/pure bear talents, it would help to sort out cat specific/bear specific players/specs.

Ninjaedit: It also seems T7 set bonuses are in (Heroes' Dreamwalker Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft)

(2) Set: Your Rip lasts for an additional 3 seconds, and your Lacerate deals an additional 5% damage.
(4) Set: Increases the duration of Berserk by 3 seconds.

Edit:
Shamelessly ripped from MMO-Champion:

Skills

* Shred - Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage.
* Maul - Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Maul damage.
* Bash now interrupts spell casts for 3 sec.

Talents

* Berserk (Tier 11) no longer causes your Mangle (Bear) and Maul attacks to hit up to 3 targets
* Predatory Instincts (Tier 8 ) reduces the damage taken by area of effect attacks by 3/6/9/12/15%. (Previously increased your chance to avoid them)
* Protector of the Pack (Tier 8 ) damage reduction is now at 3% for each party member across all ranks.
* Improved Leader of the Pack (Tier 7) - In addition, you gain 4% of your maximum mana when you benefit from Improved Leader of the Pack heal.
* Feral Charge (Cat) (Tier 5) - Causes you to leap behind an enemy, dazing them for 3 sec. 30 second cooldown.
* Faerie Fire (Feral) (Tier 3) now deals damage and causes extra threat while in bear form.
* Brutal Impact (Tier 2) now reduces the cooldown of bash by 15/30 sec in addition to its previous effect.

The Bash change is nice (esp with the Brutal Impact changes), Protector of the Pack is looking like a 1/3 talent now. Cat charge getting you behind a target is nice too.

Tyvi · 09/18/08, 5:10 AM

Originally Posted by Mijae

For bear, I'd keep +35 agi since our attacks are too slow to keep Mongoose up.

Isn't it because the attacks are so slow that you will keep it up often enough since you can spam an instant every GCD? A Swipe should have the same chances to proc Mongoose as a normal white hit.

Originally Posted by dukes

One is a level 77 skill while the other is a level 79 skill. I assume this means they have slightly different budgets in terms of effectiveness.

They are exactly the same. You gain 1 AP reduction per level up so both end up at 411 AP reduced at level 80.

nightcrowler · 09/18/08, 5:22 AM

Other news:

At Naxx-10 level istance:

Idol of the Ravenous Beast: +203 damage to shred

T7-set bonuses:

(2) Set: Your Rip lasts for an additional 3 seconds, and your Lacerate deals an additional 5% damage.
(4) Set: Increases the duration of Berserk by 3 seconds.

Note: Rip duration last for an additional 3 seconds, does it need upgrade to 4 seconds like the RIP glyph?

dukes · 09/18/08, 5:48 AM

Originally Posted by Liar

They are exactly the same. You gain 1 AP reduction per level up so both end up at 411 AP reduced at level 80.

That would make a lot of sense. I was just looking at the Wowhead descriptions, which only gives the skill details as trained.

Doesn't Swipe have a chance to proc things on every damaging part i.e. 4 targets hit = 4 proc chances? Primal fury acts this way at least, and (although anecdotally) things such as Hourglass and other proc-based trinkets/necks/rings seem to proc a lot while swiping. Obviously this would have less of a benefit while single-tanking something like a raid boss, but it's still worth considering.

Vaccine · 09/18/08, 6:05 AM

I love the farie fire change. I get home in a couple of hours I'll run some threat and damage numbers for it whilst I'm still 70.

Set bonus 2 piece is okay though as far as I'm aware lacerate still has pathetic threat from damage and its all frontloaded?

4 piece is impossible to say till we see the new Beserk Ghostcrawler promised yesterday.

Malazaar · 09/18/08, 7:03 AM

Also worth mentioning is that Protector of the Pack now grants the full mitigation bonus at 1/3, additional points only get you more static AP.

seminarca · 09/18/08, 7:05 AM

You no longer lose the Berserk buff if you shift out while it's up, however you still lose Dash.

Originally Posted by Malazaar

Also worth mentioning is that Protector of the Pack now grants the full mitigation bonus at 1/3, additional points only get you more static AP.

Aye, I was looking at this earlier, and I couldn't understand the reasoning for it. They changed Infected Wounds to force us into putting 3 in it, and then they completely defy that same logic and change Protector of the Pack to full effect (for its main use) at 1/3 .. I can't help but feel this is an oversight or a bug.

edit2: It's not an oversight or a bug, we will have to put 3/3 in Protector of the Pack. It's just an inaccurate tooltip.

1/3 PotP only gives you 1% per party member. I was just specced 1/3 in it, and with 3 party members, I got a buff called "Guardian" that said "Decreases damage taken from all sources by 3%."

So then I respecced and put 3/3 in PotP and the tooltip now reads "Decreases damage taken from all sources by 9%." with 3 party members.

Also, range has no bearing on this, I was sitting in Moonglade whilst 2 of my party members were in Dalaran and 1 in BRD, and the buff still applied properly.