- group: when I have a Shadowpriest proccing misery (i suppose it's called misery the +3% hit buff) I had "a more powerfull spell is already active" bug. This is a real bug, they are probably considering FFF<ImpFF<Misery, but misery doesn't give armor debuff so the should be really stacking (please report to beta forums).
Minor correction: FFF does stack with Misery... sort of. As has been mentioned (and I've confirmed from testing on live), if you apply FFF before Misery, you won't be able to overwrite it. If you wait until your s.priest casts something before putting FFF into your rotation, you can refresh it every CD.
Still, that doesn't change your point that it's due to buggy debuff stacking. Another solution would be to just make it so all buffs/debuffs could be "active" on a target, but only the strongest ones from one category would actually affect the mob/player, allowing multiple-component buffs/debuffs to do what they need to do without worrying that one of their aspects isn't as powerful as another buff/debuff that's already up. This sort of thing is sort of already in game, just doesn't really work right--consider the IQD zone buff. If you're in a group on the island and a priest casts improved fort, you all gain the new buff and the difference in hp between normal and improved fort, and you retain the int bonus. But if you're in a group with a priest before you go to the isle, it sees that you have improved fort and doesn't overwrite it... leaving you without the AI portion of the buff. My guess is that is derived from the same stacking issue that's causing our FFF problems at the moment.
Just for the heck of it, i also did the math for [Mark of Tyranny], it comes out at ~5.6% extra TTL, ahead of the darkmoon card, and any other tanking trinket found in Wrath...
well no. There are 2 heavy armor tanking trinket in Wotlk that are better than Mark of Tyranny and Badge of tenacity. Defender's Code Offering the Sacrifice
well no. There are 2 heavy armor tanking trinket in Wotlk that are better than Mark of Tyranny and Badge of tenacity. Defender's Code Offering the Sacrifice
I guess the point would be to compare against any trinket without armor.
I can't see why Ghostcrawler thinks bears will use trinkets without armor because of threat problems. With abilities like Tricks of the Trade threat won't ever become an issue for single-target bosses.
I guess the point would be to compare against any trinket without armor.
I can't see why Ghostcrawler thinks bears will use trinkets without armor because of threat problems. With abilities like Tricks of the Trade threat won't ever become an issue for single-target bosses.
There are still the possibilities of threat-reducing abilities, the need to multitank (ie ZA bear boss/Void Reaver)
Presumably they do testing a few tiers ahead of what is in game, so threat might still be more important later on
well no. There are 2 heavy armor tanking trinket in Wotlk that are better than Mark of Tyranny and Badge of tenacity. Defender's Code Offering the Sacrifice
The comparison was meant vs. non-armor trinkets in WotLK, it's true they at least had the decency to include 2 armor trinkets in WotLK, but that still means once we get our paws on those, we are pigeonholed once more.
Some other posters had the notion that just by getting higher i-lvl trinkets, the armor trinkets would fall behind. So i found an ilvl 63 blue armor trinket and compared it to the "best" ilvl 200 epic non-armor trinket.
Since Offering the Sacrifice is ilvl 200, should we expect an epic of ilvl 337 or higher, before we get it replaced.
Really looking forward to spending all of wrath wearing blue gear, again...
There are still the possibilities of threat-reducing abilities, the need to multitank (ie ZA bear boss/Void Reaver)
Presumably they do testing a few tiers ahead of what is in game, so threat might still be more important later on
Void Reaver you could pretty much tank alone. You could also let DPS warriors pull aggro and tank him in their dps set because he hit so weak. ZA bear is tauntable.
Other fights include Gruul, Gurtogg Bloodboil or Eredar Twins.
Gruul offtanking was just about having high enough armor to survive the big hits (we're talking pre-nerfs now). Bloodboil is just really trivial since he hits like a pussycat (it's the DoT that hurts - his damage is low even with -10000 armor from his debuff) and the fight is just about balling around threat (but he's really easy to build threat on since you can control how many debuffs you get (which controls how much rage/sec you get)).
Of couse you will want some good threat trinkets for trash and the occasional fight focused on threat or dps (twins seems to be the only progression fight in TBC that I'd use threat gear rather than survival - even with vigilance up I can't do full dps as tank-speced kitty on that boss). You'd also want a nice dodge/stamina trinket for some elemental tanking (but you'd never ever use it on mobs that do physical damage).
So yes, for your survival set, you pretty much won't upgrade your armor trinket until you get one with a higher ilvl. And I doubt you'll have issues with threat on the multi-tank fights even if you do use trinkets/jewellery that stack armor.
Void Reaver you could pretty much tank alone. You could also let DPS warriors pull aggro and tank him in their dps set because he hit so weak. ZA bear is tauntable.
Other fights include Gruul, Gurtogg Bloodboil or Eredar Twins.
Gruul offtanking was just about having high enough armor to survive the big hits (we're talking pre-nerfs now). Bloodboil is just really trivial since he hits like a pussycat (it's the DoT that hurts - his damage is low even with -10000 armor from his debuff) and the fight is just about balling around threat (but he's really easy to build threat on since you can control how many debuffs you get (which controls how much rage/sec you get)).
I think his point was new encounters that use similar mechanics. At this stage of the game I doubt anyone cares about those old fights, most everything is trivialized now anyway. Things like %-based deaggro, multi-tank fights etc., will be sure to return in the expansion in one form or another.
Defensive Stats after the buffs (vs. a raid boss, full stacked raid + Devotion Aura)
_______________________
Stamina (bear): 3231
Cat armor: 11163
Bear armor: 36854
Physical Damage Reduction Bear: 73.4532%
Defense: 412
Chance to be critical hit: 0%
Dodge (bear): 40.6721%
Miss: 9.88%
Total Avoidance (bear): 50.5521%
Total HP (bear): 40291
Tank Points (hp equivalent with 0% avoidance, 0% Damage Reduction and without parry from the boss) (bear): 294235
I didn't really understand how the bear had 73.45% DR against physical attacks when it only has 36.9k armor. Isn't the cap something like 50k against level 83 mobs?
I didn't really understand how the bear had 73.45% DR against physical attacks when it only has 36.9k armor. Isn't the cap something like 50k against level 83 mobs?
This also includes protector of the pack and any other related benefits.
This also includes protector of the pack and any other related benefits.
Assuming Devo was already included...37k armor should result in around 55% DR. Add Potp to that.. if the boss hits for 10k per swing:
5500 pre-potp
5500 - (5500*.12) = 4840
so you have a physical DR of 55+6.6 = 61.6%. Thats an approximation... I didn't take into account the diminish on armor : /
That and if druids are armor capped by the end of t7 with the help of other raid buffs then we just got pigeon-holed again. We would just stack armor until that point then just try to find ways to improve ourself and not really scale.
Assuming Devo was already included...37k armor should result in around 55% DR.
According to this calculator, that's not true. 37k armor against a level 83 boss is 68.9% reduction. Protector of the Pack is 12% on top of that, which would be a (1- ((1-.12)*(1-.689))) reduction, or 72.7% overall reduction. If you include things like grace I believe you'll get the numbers above.
According to this calculator, that's not true. 37k armor against a level 83 boss is 68.9% reduction. Protector of the Pack is 12% on top of that, which would be a (1- ((1-.12)*(1-.689))) reduction, or 72.7% overall reduction. If you include things like grace I believe you'll get the numbers above.
I see where I went wrong... I thought leaving out the diminshing returns would've effected the DR by maybe a percent or two, but in actually itsa lot more. Sorry.
Back to my other point... that would mean that we would be armor capped pretty quick. Also! I've really wanted to know why stacking armor to get from 73% (43k armor) DR - 75% (~50k armor) DR is favored over other stats. I mean getting 5k armor in WotLK is probably going to be pretty hard, so why not stack other stats i.e. stamina and agility?
Another question!! (I don't post often >.<) What type of gems are we looking at in terms of dpsing and tanking? If its already been posted... is it possible to give me the link to the post? Thank you!
While armor does suffer from diminishing returns if you consider the amount that incoming damage is being reduced, it is actually linear if you look at it from a time to live (TTL) point of view. The math is already done and easy to reproduce on your own so I won't repeat the calculations here, but when it comes to extending your time to live armor is always worth the same amount, whether you're at 500 armor or 40,000.
Another question!! (I don't post often >.<) What type of gems are we looking at in terms of dpsing and tanking? If its already been posted... is it possible to give me the link to the post? Thank you!
Use Rawr to determine specific needs. Currently it looks like the strategy is to stack stamina until you have enough, then stack agility or dodge. In the future threat/dps may become important enough that stacking hit,expertise and strength will be important, but so far that appears not to be the case.
Use Rawr to determine specific needs. Currently it looks like the strategy is to stack stamina until you have enough, then stack agility or dodge. In the future threat/dps may become important enough that stacking hit,expertise and strength will be important, but so far that appears not to be the case.
Thats the general idea, though what is "enough"? 25k?30k? etc. Also is agility still > dodge rating?
What is enough will depend on your raid, the encounter and your ability. Only you can judge that. I would say that for Naxx-25 level encounters 'enough' is about 30k, give or take.
Agility is still better than dodge rating, though a lot of that is because it provides more armor, avoidance and threat. At level 80 dodge rating provides slightly more dodge than agility for a bear, but it's not going to be all that useful. Defense rating, by the way, is only slightly worse than dodge at level 80 due to how diminishing returns work.
What is enough will depend on your raid, the encounter and your ability. Only you can judge that. I would say that for Naxx-25 level encounters 'enough' is about 30k, give or take.
Agility is still better than dodge rating, though a lot of that is because it provides more armor, avoidance and threat. At level 80 dodge rating provides slightly more dodge than agility for a bear, but it's not going to be all that useful. Defense rating, by the way, is only slightly worse than dodge at level 80 due to how diminishing returns work.
After 50% dodge defense is supposed to be better right?
Agility is still better than dodge rating, though a lot of that is because it provides more armor, avoidance and threat. At level 80 dodge rating provides slightly more dodge than agility for a bear, but it's not going to be all that useful. Defense rating, by the way, is only slightly worse than dodge at level 80 due to how diminishing returns work.
Actually, agility will still provide more dodge than dodge rating after factoring in Kings and SotF, assuming that the first post of the Combat Ratings thread is still accurate.
Actually, agility will still provide more dodge than dodge rating after factoring in Kings and SotF, assuming that the first post of the Combat Ratings thread is still accurate.
Yep, you're right. Dodge provides more base (39.4 dodge per 1% vs 41.6 agility per 1%) but you effectively get 1.16 agility per item point of agility. So agi wins again.
Edit: I speculate this will improve Bear form for other specs since acheiving the same armour total without the multiplier on trinkets will mean a higher multiplier for the eight leather slots.
Edit: I speculate this will improve Bear form for other specs since acheiving the same armour total without the multiplier on trinkets will mean a higher multiplier for the eight leather slots.
They could buff leather armor coefficients, but they could also do an AP->armor conversion that would leave bear form even weaker for non-feral specs. They could also just plain reduce armor from trinkets and rings: based on bears passing the armor soft-cap in T7 (at the cap with inspiration), it seems like a straight up, unmitigated nerf to feral armor from trinkets might also be reasonable.
Sounds like GC is presenting: Hit points - Avoidance - Armor as a sort of Rock - Paper - Scissor, where they each have an advantage over the other in different scenarios.
That is all fine and dandy, except for the fact that the Scissor (Amor) wins over Paper and Rock every time.
Looks like a good time to get that Badge of Tenacity before it becomes super-rare in the expansion.
Ok, seems like the notion of feral armor is not completely set in stone on the blizzard end of things. Which is nice to hear. So i thought. Why not push my old agenda back on, but in a more "pure" version.
Basically, change bear armor bonus to only affect leather armor. This is more "extreme" than my previous suggesting of just not letting it affect rings/trinkets/necklaces, but has the nice bonus of only requiring the dire bear tooltip to be updated to include "from leather armor". Makes it a lot less confusing and consistant.
Anyhow math time.
Assumptions
full ilvl 200 leather = 3244 armor
periphirals (ilvl 200-213 epic armor gear, with preference for ilvl 200):
weapon 630
cloak 486
trinkets 850 + 550
neck 350
rings 490 + 448
total = 3804 armor
I assume the endgame gear for Wrath will be around ilvl 300.
Working backwards:
The main goal is to both balance druid armor, and ensure we scale consistently across the entire expansion. This means not hitting the hard cap, and only just touching the soft cap at the end of wrath.
Bear leather armor mods
Seems the formula for base armor gets a whack in wrath too, in TBC, +1 ilvl ~ +3 armor, in wrath its ~ +1 armor, Before slot mods. This might just be an oversight from when they removed the +armor on leather. However, it seems plate got the same /3 treatment for base armor, so might be intentional.
Going from an assumption on an ilvl 300 leather set having ~3900 armor (8 armor pieces have a summed slot-mod of 5.75). and a goal of just getting to the soft cap, with all the armor in the game. We get:
35.6k / 1.1 (thick hide) = 32.4k armor, substracting all the non-leather pieces, we get 32.4k - 3.8k = 28.6k as total remainding armor to be gained from leather alone.
Since we are looking at 3900 armor as max, that means we need to land on 7.3 as the mod, meaning bear armor mod for leather only should be around 630%.
If the base armor scaling is reverted to the TBC values, we would gain ~1800 armor going from ilvl 200->300, and we would end up with a final mod of 5.7, so +470% armor for leather would be the "right" spot.
Uncertainties
I've clumsily assumed that armor from non-leather items don't rise too steeply, that people won't be using a flask that grants armor, and neglected any increase in agi going from ilvl 200 to ilvl 300. So the suggested modifiers might be a little too high. But then again, i'm sure Blizzard has a much more detailed spreadsheet that will account for this.
Balance
Doing this change as a stand-alone change, would most likely be a nerf to bear mitigation, though i haven't done the numbers. Ofcourse dodge / potp would have to be rebalanced based on our new lowered mitigation values, but at least we get linear scaling and meaningful choices for non-leather gear.
Conclusion
In short this isn't a suggestion for a final balance fix, more of a clean up in scaling mechanic, before the balance fix (though it might be a little late for that).
The armor scaling reduction from ilvl is new for me, has this been noted/discussed elsewhere?
How much is 10 Haste Rating worth for a feral cat? Is there any use in gemming Quick Lionseye, since they work for melee now, or is Hit and Agi always a better choice?
Based on the numbers shown here before, haste remains one of our weakest stats. Str, Agi and Hit appears to be the top stats for dps, though I'm really not sure which comes out on top.
10/31/08, 10:37 AM
