I remember at the beginning of the beta phase they were talking about removing the internal cd from omen of clarity procs from melee attacks. I know they've already changed the ppm mechanic behind it, but my (very limited) experience dpsing on beta seemed to suggest it still had an internal cd.
If the internal cd went, haste would be a competitive stat with the others, like it is for other melee classes. It'd mean more procs -> more yellow hits -> more dps.
I remember at the beginning of the beta phase they were talking about removing the internal cd from omen of clarity procs from melee attacks. I know they've already changed the ppm mechanic behind it, but my (very limited) experience dpsing on beta seemed to suggest it still had an internal cd.
If the internal cd went, haste would be a competitive stat with the others, like it is for other melee classes. It'd mean more procs -> more yellow hits -> more dps.
First of all, I believe OoC's internal cooldown has been removed, but is restricted to white hit exclusive. This allows haste to scale properly.
With that said, it just makes it better- how much better, or whether or not it is as competitive as the better stats, remains to be simulated.
I remember at the beginning of the beta phase they were talking about removing the internal cd from omen of clarity procs from melee attacks. I know they've already changed the ppm mechanic behind it, but my (very limited) experience dpsing on beta seemed to suggest it still had an internal cd.
If the internal cd went, haste would be a competitive stat with the others, like it is for other melee classes. It'd mean more procs -> more yellow hits -> more dps.
I'm not so sure it has an internal CD. I have had times where I got back to back procs. This is while solo as well so there is no chance of confuseing the "Ping" of another player geting a clear cast proc (I hate enh. shamies, they are noisy with that SFX). I've literaly heard the ping of OOC the pow of mangle followed by another ping numerous times while just grinding. If there is a CD its not much longer than a second or two.
Cat GCD is 1 second and base attack speed is 1.00 as well. So with some amount of haste or ping such that your attack speed gets below 1.00 or your GCD gets "above" 1 second (latency inflation), theoretically it is possible to get back to back procs whilst still in GCD and lose one of them.
Hey all. With WotLK's release approaching, and it having been quite a while since the last time anyone tested Bear threat values, I figured I should retest everything. Here are my results (this is with max rank spells at level 80):
NOTE: You'll notice a multiplier of '29/14' used commonly; that's the standard bear form multiplier. It comes from our original threat in 2.0, with Salv factored in (1.15+0.3)/0.7, or 1.45/0.7, or 29/14. Also, anywhere you see this multiplier, if you shift out of bear form, this multiplier disappears. Similarly, if you cast a HOT or DOT in cat/caster and then shift to bear form, their threat does get multiplied by 29/14. So if you're OTing, and expect to take over MTing soon, Mangle+SR+Rake+Rip+BearForm will make the strong Rip/Rake dot ticks do 29/14 multiplied threat.
@ Astrylian:
Really good job, as always. Are those values for level 80 or 70? Are you sure about Mangle-Bear? Last time I cheked I came out with a 1.5 multiplier, I'll retest it.
A really noob question: Does talents increasing damage also increase static threat?
@ Armor multiplier:
I think that the best way to solve armor itemization problem will be lowering our multiplier from 4.7 to 3.2 (this will make armor in par with stamina from an item-budget point of view) and give us 2 armor for each point of Attack Power in bear form (this will make a better use of roguish gear and str/stam/dodge gadgets).
If other specs suffers from this they can simply give them 4 armor for each point of Spell Power.
That was all at level 80, with max ranks of each spell. Will edit that post to add that.
I didn't test that specifically, but I assumed that no, talents that add multipliers to spell damage just multiplied the damage, not the static components.
Talents dont increase the static threat part, if you play around with completely untalented maul, you'll see that the static threat is still 425, or 424 if Astrylian is correct. Last I did my testing on beta though, Mangle did still have it's multiplier, and I doubt they removed it in the past several weeks. My beta install broke a few weeks ago so I can't test it right now, but mangle is the one number that seems off in your testing Astry.
Lastly, just put in 207% modifier instead of 29/14? It means the exact same thing but 207% will make it easier to read for alot of people.
The constants are hard to get perfectly accurate due to rounding; it may very well be 425. I rechecked my data and math on Mangle, it didn't have a multiplier. In each of my tests, threat generated was between 2.08 and 2.07 times the damage.
OH, I almost forgot. There was one major surprise. The static (not all of it, just the 424 static) threat on Maul gets split between the two targets if you have Glyph of Maul and it hits 2 targets. Updated the post to reflect that. Going to redo the Mangle test now, just to be sure.
EDIT: Redid the Mangle test, no threat multiplier on Mangle.
It's not that odd, it actually makes sense that Lacerate is now somewhat useable because I doubt they intended it to be as useless as it ended up being in TBC.
Today, I checked the total damage formula of each bear attack, here are the results (again, at level 80, using max rank spells):
Formula Components BASE: 137+(AP/14)*2.5 (basic auto-attack damage without other multipliers; used in several of the attacks) NATURALIST: 1 + (0.02 * POINTS_IN_NATURALIST) (1.1 with 5/5 Naturalist) MASTER: 1 + (0.02 * POINTS_IN_MASTER_SHAPESHIFTER) (1.04 with 2/2 Master Shapeshifted) SAVAGE: 1 + (0.1 * POINTS_IN_SAVAGE_FURY) (1.2 with 2/2 Savage Fury) INSTINCT: 1 + (0.1 * POINTS_IN_FERAL_INSTINCT) (1.3 with 3/3 Feral Instinct) MANGLE: 1.3 if Mangle or Trauma is up, 1.0 otherwise RENDTEAR: 1 + (0.04 * POINTS_IN_REND_AND_TEAR) (1.2 with 5/5 Rend and Tear) ARMOR: The % of physical damage taken by the target after armor
Bear Attacks Melee: BASE * NATURALIST * MASTER * ARMOR Maul: (BASE + 578) * NATURALIST * MASTER * SAVAGE * MANGLE * RENDTEAR * ARMOR Mangle - Bear: (BASE * 1.15 + 299) * NATURALIST * MASTER * SAVAGE * ARMOR Swipe: (AP * 0.063 + 108) * NATURALIST * MASTER * INSTINCT * ARMOR Faerie Fire (Feral): (AP * 0.05 + 1) (NOTE: Naturalist is NOT applied, Master Shapeshifter, Armor is NOT applied. Crits use a 1.5 base crit multiplier, not 2.0. Is still affected by +3% crit damage metagem. Does NOT proc Primal Fury or Improved Leader of the Pack) Lacerate: (AP * 0.01 + 88) * NATURALIST * MASTER * ARMOR (NOTE: That's correct, it's not affected by Mangle, and it is affected by armor.) Lacerate DOT Tick: (AP * 0.01 + 64) * STACK_SIZE * MASTER * NATURALIST * MANGLE (NOTE: Stacks to 5, ticks 5 times, once every 3 sec, tick timer not reset by reapplication)
Let me know if anyone sees anything wrong with these.
This is a little old, but it seems a full stack of lacerate is actually worth keeping up other than dps implications.
Yes, especially considering we won't have our 4t6 to increase our swipe. Also, 2t7 is +5% damage to lacerate. It'll be tasty for both damage and threat
Sidebar: Was fun cycloning you Falk on Lady Sylvanas this week. Finished 12 short of City Defender achievement though.
This might be a stupid question, but how exactly does the damage range works for druids? For other classes, I've just assumed it's the damage range on the weapons (say 230-290), but in feral forms it's all about AP? Why can a white hit do 300, and then 310 the next hit?
Faerie Fire (Feral): (AP * 0.05 + 1) (NOTE: Naturalist is NOT applied, Armor is NOT applied. Crits use a 1.5 base crit multiplier, not 2.0. Is still affected by +3% crit damage metagem. Does NOT proc Primal Fury)
Do you have an idea of the crit chance for this? Would this count all crit accept from agility?
Originally Posted by Astrylian
Lacerate DOT: (AP * 0.01 + 64) * STACK_SIZE * NATURALIST * MANGLE (NOTE: Stacks to 5, ticks 5 times, once every 3 sec, tick timer not reset by reapplication)
Is this correct? The tooltip on Wowhead says 320 per application, not total (64*5).
Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.
There's a base damage for the forms. It's not huge... It's an average of 137, but I don't recall the range offhand.... 107 to 167 or something like that.
Originally Posted by Mijae
Do you have an idea of the crit chance for this? Would this count all crit accept from agility?
Is this correct? The tooltip on Wowhead says 320 per application, not total (64*5).
Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.
Don't know the crit chance on FFF yet. Oh, and it doesn't proc iLotP either, BTW.
Those Lacerate numbers are for a single tick. So it is base of 320 over the full duration, 64 per tick.
Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.
For "spamming" this is right and already established 10-15 pages ago, if you're at the point where your swipes average more then 550-ish damage it's better to swipe spam then lacerate. What Falk was talking about is keeping up a 5stack though, something that at the moment is a TPS loss (yet a dps gain) on boss fights, but in LK it'll always be worth keeping up at least, assuming the fight is of decent length.
For "spamming" this is right and already established 10-15 pages ago, if you're at the point where your swipes average more then 550-ish damage it's better to swipe spam then lacerate. What Falk was talking about is keeping up a 5stack though, something that at the moment is a TPS loss (yet a dps gain) on boss fights, but in LK it'll always be worth keeping up at least, assuming the fight is of decent length.
Well, Astrylian's post was the first confirmation of final threat values I've seen, so nothing previously established imo. I'm not sure what post you're referring to of Falk's, mine was in response to Astrylian's. Giving a hard number for Swipe for when it beats Lacerate isn't as easy as a hard number (550 is definitely not it). It's not easy to determine your average damage from just your combat log. My point was where this break occurs in terms of content. Specifically, if the numbers had changed as drastically as I initially interpreted them from his post it would have occured very early and made Lacerate obsolete. Since I misread them, it's not the case.
In fact, the opposite is true. Lacerate spam will be better than Swipe spam even in full Naxx 25 gear. Additionally, it changes the fact that Swipe spam will never out-scale just maintaining the Lacerate bleed. This was my main concern.
It is very easy to determine a hard number where swipe beats lacerate, and it is around 550. The static threat component for Lacerate is around 1050, after our 207% multiplier. I had it at 1100 earlier, which is reasonably in line if you take the damage of it into account as well. In order to break 1100 threat for one lacerate you need 531, which is where that number originates from.
Now lacerate threat appears to be slightly over 1100, more around 1150 if you take the damage including multiplier into account, so the number where swipe overtakes Lacerate will be between 550 and 600 average damage, which again is very easy to calculate. Assuming you have Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter and Primal Instinct, your average swipe damage will be (AP * 0.0937 + 160) * 1.Crit_chance * Target armor. Note how relatively easy this is to get above 600. By the time you're kitted out in Naxx10+25 gear, swipe will already be superior single target TPS/DPS compared to lacerate "spam", not counting the bleed which you'll be keeping up.
It is very easy to determine a hard number where swipe beats lacerate, and it is around 550. The static threat component for Lacerate is around 1050, after our 207% multiplier. I had it at 1100 earlier, which is reasonably in line if you take the damage of it into account as well. In order to break 1100 threat for one lacerate you need 531, which is where that number originates from.
Now lacerate threat appears to be slightly over 1100, more around 1150 if you take the damage including multiplier into account, so the number where swipe overtakes Lacerate will be between 550 and 600 average damage, which again is very easy to calculate. Assuming you have Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter and Primal Instinct, your average swipe damage will be (AP * 0.0937 + 160) * 1.Crit_chance * Target armor. Note how relatively easy this is to get above 600. By the time you're kitted out in Naxx10+25 gear, swipe will already be superior single target TPS/DPS compared to lacerate "spam", not counting the bleed which you'll be keeping up.
Lacerate spam includes the bleed. You can't just ignore it. When comparing spamming each, the bleed is enough to make it better even past the Naxx 25 level. Of course that hard number can be calculated also.
Now if you're talking about the break point between Lacerate spam and just keeping the bleed up, that's a different argument. I already agreed it will beat Lacerate spam at all gear levels. I didn't say it's hard to calculate a hard number. I say it's not easy to tell someone a number break point because you can't get it directly from either a combat log or your character sheet. You need something like WWS (or a formula estimate) and even then RNG comes into play.
Regardless, my point again was at what content level break points occur at not at what value. It ends up not mattering since we'll be above that level even in blues.
Lacerate spam includes the bleed. You can't just ignore it. When comparing spamming each, the bleed is enough to make it better even past the Naxx 25 level. Of course that hard number can be calculated also.
Now if you're talking about the break point between Lacerate spam and just keeping the bleed up, that's a different argument. I already agreed it will beat Lacerate spam at all gear levels. I didn't say it's hard to calculate a hard number. I say it's not easy to tell someone a number break point because you can't get it directly from either a combat log or your character sheet. You need something like WWS (or a formula estimate) and even then RNG comes into play.
Regardless, my point again was at what content level break points occur at not at what value. It ends up not mattering since we'll be above that level even in blues.
you can ignore the bleed effect after you maintain 5 stack and is just using lacerate every 15 seconds to maintain the bleed. At that point, each swipe's aggro is compared to each lacerate's frontal threat due to the fact that you don't get double bleed bonus from using lacerate again; in both cases the 5 stack lacerate is ticking.
The expected value is basically calculated already at which swipe beats lacerate on average. However, if you're the type of person that chooses to go for the worst case scenario, then you should stick to lacerate spam. In both cases, however, I sincerely doubt that threat can remotely catch you. In this case i'd rather go with the swipe cycle and just maintain lacerate due to the higher dps provided.
Using those calculations, and one of my current armor sets (mostly complete sunwell gear, agi-centric gemming, with 2T6 and 4T6), I get these DPS/TPS calculations for each possible rotation:
However, I know that my calculations are not quite right yet for the rotations with both Lacerate and Swipe... It doesn't adjust for the miss rate of Lacerate. It should lacerate, then look 15sec ahead, and choose the 2nd to last unused GCD from there, Lacerate, and Lacerate again if that misses, then go 15sec ahead of whichever of those landed, repeating. Instead, it currently Lacerates, goes 7.5sec ahead, goes to the next unused GCD, Lacerates again, repeat. That makes it Lacerate a little bit more than it needs to, leaving less room for swipes.
Also, Mangle/Trauma is assumed to always be up.
EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, that's level 70 gear, on a level 80 character. So crit chance is way low, chance for attack to be avoided is way high. I'll redo this with T7-10 and T7-25 level gear soon.
I've tested mangle, and yes they have removed the 1.5 multiplier also in live.
FFF uses spell critical strike and probably (should be tested) spell hit. Is spell hit capped at 16%? Can you find out the base spell crit at level 70 and wich buff affect spell hit and spell crit?
The crit damage increase is 50% instead of 100% because it's a spell (I suppose).
11/01/08, 5:49 PM
