Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 138

spartakos · 11/03/08, 5:59 AM

I assume that the tps/dps values are unbuffed cause 3k max tps seems a bit low.

Selmarix · 11/03/08, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

FFF uses spell critical strike and probably (should be tested) spell hit. Is spell hit capped at 16%?

Spell hit cap is 17% against +3 level mobs. Before last patch there was always a minimum 1% spell miss chance which resulted in a cap of 16%. This minimum spell miss chance has been removed.

david0925 · 11/03/08, 8:40 AM

For Feral Fairie Fire:

1.It uses spell hit and crit. Crit will be lower since feral gets a significant amount of crit from agility, which will not benefit spell crit. Hit will be higher due to the fact that spell hit requires less hit rating. However, since spells need 17% to cap versus melee's 9%, 9% melee hit will not cap spell hit.

2.The crit bonus from FFF is 50% because it is a spell. However that is an insignificant contribution to threat, as the majority of FFF's threat (and it should only be used as a threat move) comes from the static number.

Boevis · 11/03/08, 9:41 AM

I'm assuming that's without Berserk's mangle spam, Spartakos. But all things considered at level 70, 3k threat is pretty good.

spartakos · 11/03/08, 10:37 AM

Yes but Astrylian said that only gear is level 70 abilities rank are level 80. The hit and crit values go down but the new ranks and talents should overlapse that, or so I hope.

Prinsesa · 11/03/08, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

For Feral Fairie Fire:

1.It uses spell hit and crit. Crit will be lower since feral gets a significant amount of crit from agility, which will not benefit spell crit. Hit will be higher due to the fact that spell hit requires less hit rating. However, since spells need 17% to cap versus melee's 9%, 9% melee hit will not cap spell hit.

To be precise:

* Being 9% melee hit capped at 70 (142 rating, since Feral Druids have no hit talent) is worth 11.26% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.74% miss rate.

* Being 9% melee hit capped at 80 (296 rating) is worth 11.28% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.71% miss rate.

nightcrowler · 11/03/08, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

To be precise:
* Being 9% melee hit capped at 80 (296 rating) is worth 11.28% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.71% miss rate.

We should also consider buffs that increase spell hit like the moonkin/spriest one. So more properly we will usually have 3% more chance to hit, leaving us with a mere 2.71% chance to miss.

Does spells works like white or yellow melee attacks? (Single or double roll?)

Prinsesa · 11/03/08, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

We should also consider buffs that increase spell hit like the moonkin/spriest one. So more properly we will usually have 3% more chance to hit, leaving us with a mere 2.71% chance to miss.

Does spells works like white or yellow melee attacks? (Single or double roll?)

Yellows are yellows, whether they're abilities/attacks or spells, so yes, they use a double-roll system.

• Astrylian · 11/03/08, 12:13 PM

3k TPS does seem low, but that is buffed. It's so low because of the level 70 gear, primarily. It's got only 1.3% hit, 0.8% exp. 26% of all attacks were being avoided in that configuration. Similarly, Agi and Crit rating are lower than they should be at 80; crit chance was only like 24% or something.

It also didn't include the threat from the minor threat sources (thorns, rage gains, clearcasting, etc).

cana · 11/03/08, 2:26 PM

I found an Addon (Ripped) that was (in general) requested some pages ago.

From the description at WoWInterface:

Ripped is a tool that assists players with obtaining and keeping a optimal DPS cycle (or spell rotation / spell cycle / spell priority).

This comes in handy, even for experienced players in stressful situations or where keeping an overview would be hard (noticing that your important debuff has run out, or reapplying a debuff/buff too early etc).

I couldn't test it yet here at work, but from what I read this sounds pretty cool.

kalbear · 11/03/08, 3:45 PM

Never mind - read later that you did use crit of 24%. Of course, as crit goes up the value of doing more swiping over lacerate increases, though I do not believe that losing the lacerate stack becomes viable until we have really absurd numbers and are still using the 4pT6 bonus, which would preclude having absurd bonuses.

Has there been any testing done to see whether the 2pT6 bonus for mangle threat has been nerfed at 80?

Macevaland · 11/03/08, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by cana

I found an Addon (Ripped) that was (in general) requested some pages ago.

I couldn't test it yet here at work, but from what I read this sounds pretty cool.

I downloaded it, and the feral cat strategy seems to be messed up. It doesn't use rake on its rotation, and it wants you to start with prowl.

nightcrowler · 11/03/08, 4:39 PM

Using Astrylian value for abilities and threat I've modified my Bear simulation.
With full t7.10, fully raid buffed, gemmed,etc...
In an infinite rage scenarios. (FFF dps is not fixed with spell crit yet in the simulation, but the difference will be minimal)

DPS: 2947
TPS: 6413

**************************************
Mangle bear: 16.7906%, Average Damage: 2470.35, Maul: 65.6568%, Average Damage: 4251.79, Lacerate: 13.1121%, Average Damage: 5067.17, Swipe: 2.92452% Average Damage: 556.33, FeralFairieFire: 1.51597% Average Damage: 453.003

The cycle used is:
mangle every cd
maul always
FFF every cd if you don't need to use mangle or keep the lacerate stack
keep lacerate stack up (refreshing every 13.5 seconds so you have a second choce if you miss the first one).
Swipe

without considering threat reduction abilities 6400 TPS are way higher than anything a dpser can keep up at that tier level, I think that dps at that tier level will be around 5k this means about 30% more threat than a dpser without threat reduction talents. For istance with the same gear level a cat druid will do about 4.8k dps with 29% less threat is 3.4k TPS or about half the tank threat.

cana · 11/03/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Macevaland

I downloaded it, and the feral cat strategy seems to be messed up. It doesn't use rake on its rotation, and it wants you to start with prowl.

Maybe it needs (heavy) adjustment, but still could provide a solid background for the addon several people wanted to have. I'm not that much into the LUA thing, I just wanted to mention it in case somebody would like to give it a try.

Mysticum · 11/03/08, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by Macevaland

I downloaded it, and the feral cat strategy seems to be messed up. It doesn't use rake on its rotation, and it wants you to start with prowl.

No wonder, since it hasn't been updated since the last patch. Will be intresting to see if the author will update it for WotLK, otherwise it would be tempting to try make one. Even if I prefer taking care of most things manually.

My very first post @Elitist Jerks by the way. Couldn't find any introduction thread or anything, but here I am.

manapaws · 11/03/08, 6:50 PM

Thanks alot for your efforts Astrylian.

@Nightcrowler: Looks pretty good, does that take into account the +10% armor buff that level 83 bosses got a couple of weeks ago?

• Astrylian · 11/03/08, 7:16 PM

Oh, that reminds me! Those DPS/TPS numbers above were done with 11000 armor. I think it ended up being like 31% physical reduction, after my meager armor reductions?

david0925 · 11/03/08, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Using Astrylian value for abilities and threat I've modified my Bear simulation.
With full t7.10, fully raid buffed, gemmed,etc...
In an infinite rage scenarios. (FFF dps is not fixed with spell crit yet in the simulation, but the difference will be minimal)

DPS: 2947
TPS: 6413

**************************************
Mangle bear: 16.7906%, Average Damage: 2470.35, Maul: 65.6568%, Average Damage: 4251.79, Lacerate: 13.1121%, Average Damage: 5067.17, Swipe: 2.92452% Average Damage: 556.33, FeralFairieFire: 1.51597% Average Damage: 453.003

The cycle used is:
mangle every cd
maul always
FFF every cd if you don't need to use mangle or keep the lacerate stack
keep lacerate stack up (refreshing every 13.5 seconds so you have a second choce if you miss the first one).
Swipe

without considering threat reduction abilities 6400 TPS are way higher than anything a dpser can keep up at that tier level, I think that dps at that tier level will be around 5k this means about 30% more threat than a dpser without threat reduction talents. For istance with the same gear level a cat druid will do about 4.8k dps with 29% less threat is 3.4k TPS or about half the tank threat.

The lacerate average damage being 5067 is kind of weird, is that bleed over 15 seconds? even then that translate to about 1k/tick. If possible can you elaborate on that a bit?

• Astrylian · 11/03/08, 10:20 PM

I could use some feedback on what ferals value in a bear rotation. Basically, I've got all these possible rotations, and getting a DPS/TPS value for each, but I don't want to show all of that data, since most of it doesn't matter.

I'll show the DPS and TPS of the following rotations:
Highest Single Target TPS Rotation
Highest Single Target DPS Rotation
Swipe Spam

And I'll also show the expected Damage and Threat of each attack. Is there anything else that bears will care about? I'll probably include a chart of all rotations and their DPS/Threat, as well.

Foxe · 11/03/08, 11:06 PM

Maybe a bit off topic, but I'm thinking I should level 70-80 as a bear spec... not the least of which reasons include being able to find groups easily as a tank. Problem is I don't know where to drop my talent points for maximum effectiveness at level 70. There are some issues: should I go for OoC out of the gate? Do I have enough points to get 3/3 SotF?

Bear's solo DPS is great, and with glyph of maul/swipe spam, I'm thinking this is the way to go for leveling... any help with a starting level 70 spec would be much appreciated.

kalbear · 11/03/08, 11:16 PM

The rotation without lacerate in terms of value relative to highest single target dps/tps would be good; this would represent fights where for whatever reason you can't keep up a lacerate stack. I'm thinking movement-based fights or fights that require a lot of changing.

Brute · 11/03/08, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by Foxe

Maybe a bit off topic, but I'm thinking I should level 70-80 as a bear spec... not the least of which reasons include being able to find groups easily as a tank. Problem is I don't know where to drop my talent points for maximum effectiveness at level 70. There are some issues: should I go for OoC out of the gate? Do I have enough points to get 3/3 SotF?

Bear's solo DPS is great, and with glyph of maul/swipe spam, I'm thinking this is the way to go for leveling... any help with a starting level 70 spec would be much appreciated.

You really dont need to be 'bear' spec for anything short of heroics as the leveling content and regular 5 mans are trivial.

LucidLiving · 11/04/08, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Maeltne

It all depends on how well we trust blizzard to itemize our gear. TBC >>> better than LOL-vanilla - but many items are still so poorly itemized that I cry myself to sleep sometimes.

If I could assign the points on my gear, I'd be seriously OP.

Im sorry if this seems pointless, but I would like to know what you mean by "LOL-vanilla[gear]" Im guessing perhaps you are referring to the gear you get from regular (non heroic) instances in Outlands? If not, please specify.

One definite difference I have noticed since the WOTLK(Wrath of the Lich King) patch regarding my 70 feral druid is my heals are less effective, this makes for less survivability in any and all solitary or PVP scenarios. My healing touch spell feels more like a paladin's flash of light. Just a quick and uncontroversial observation. =]

Back to the topic:!
I don't think it's an accurate statement to say "TBC >>> better than LOL-vanilla" given that I gave the correct definition for "LOL-vanilla". Here is an example.A.[Shoulderpads of Assassination] is better than B.[Bloodfang Spaulders]

Correct me if im wrong, but Sethekk Halls is a "vanilla" or non-heroic instance. Those Shoulderpads of Assassination have the following excess of stats(more than the Bloodfang Spaulders):
+0 armor +8 stam -10 fire resist -12 dodge rating + (2x)possible 12 crit rating from [Blood of Amber]
The Shoulderpads of Assassination are clearly better for rogues in DPS and solo leveling. PVP is debatable.

skip here if you want my point.->Therefore, I would say {TBC gear < "LOL-vanilla" gear}

unitsinc · 11/04/08, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by LucidLiving

Im sorry if this seems pointless, but I would like to know what you mean by "LOL-vanilla[gear]" Im guessing perhaps you are referring to the gear you get from regular (non heroic) instances in Outlands? If not, please specify.

One definite difference I have noticed since the WOTLK(Wrath of the Lich King) patch regarding my 70 feral druid is my heals are less effective, this makes for less survivability in any and all solitary or PVP scenarios. My healing touch spell feels more like a paladin's flash of light. Just a quick and uncontroversial observation. =]

Back to the topic:!
I don't think it's an accurate statement to say "TBC >>> better than LOL-vanilla" given that I gave the correct definition for "LOL-vanilla". Here is an example.A.[Shoulderpads of Assassination] is better than B.[Bloodfang Spaulders]

Correct me if im wrong, but Sethekk Halls is a "vanilla" or non-heroic instance. Those Shoulderpads of Assassination have the following excess of stats(more than the Bloodfang Spaulders):
+0 armor +8 stam -10 fire resist -12 dodge rating + (2x)possible 12 crit rating from [Blood of Amber]
The Shoulderpads of Assassination are clearly better for rogues in DPS and solo leveling. PVP is debatable.

skip here if you want my point.->Therefore, I would say {TBC gear < "LOL-vanilla" gear}

Vanilla refers to pre-BC aka original wow. So I would say that BC itemization>Vanilla Wow. Bloodfang is also from a level 60 raid. And you can't put two of those gems in there. They're unique-equipped.

• Astrylian · 11/04/08, 1:01 AM

Vanilla = Classic WoW, pre-BC, 1.X. Everything before the tBC expansion.

EDIT: I should know not to answer obvious questions after leaving the page up for half an hour before answering.