Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 150

Lord BEEF · 09/23/08, 11:01 AM

I doubt you're going to run into threat issues (at least on single targets). All tanks generate massive amounts of threat now including of course bears. While your dps will gear up, your threat also scales when you get new gear.

Even dps specs that are currently broken and doing like 3500 dps in a raid setting aren't having any threat issues.

As for respecs, they haven't said on that yet either.

tlbj6142 · 09/23/08, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Melthu

Can any bears in Beta give an estimate of how important OOC is to tanking, if it is at all?

On the PTR last night I tried taking out that elite ogre that roams up on the plateau above Shat. In 2T4 plus badge gear, I just about never ran out of rage due to the NR and PF. I don't recall how often OoC proc'd during that time, but I doubt it helped all that much. I assume a real boss would have generated even more threat (due to damage received). And don't forget there are now a few classes who's buffs give us rage per crit, etc.

So, in a pure bear build, I doubt OoC is worth it.

Meikel · 09/23/08, 1:20 PM

I have enjoyed playing my druid as a feral hybrid and would like to continue in that role. I have played with the talent calculator and keep coming back to this build:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000

There is one point left over (two if I take one out of RnT), I'm not sure where I would put the other point(s). I was thinking ILotP but Infected wounds looks interesting. I may have no choice but to take primal precision depending on gear.

Any thoughts?

tlbj6142 · 09/23/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Meikel

Any thoughts?

MS is weak for bear. And, I'm not too sure it is all that great for cat. If that later holds true, you can probably give up those 5 points for PP + IW or IM. So, think of it like this...

Take what you have if you want a slightly stronger cat than bear. Take PP + IW or IM, if you want a slightly strong bear than cat.

smurph98gt · 09/23/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

On the PTR last night I tried taking out that elite ogre that roams up on the plateau above Shat. In 2T4 plus badge gear, I just about never ran out of rage due to the NR and PF. I don't recall how often OoC proc'd during that time, but I doubt it helped all that much. I assume a real boss would have generated even more threat (due to damage received). And don't forget there are now a few classes who's buffs give us rage per crit, etc.

So, in a pure bear build, I doubt OoC is worth it.

Can you post your spec? I haven't come across anyone elses specs for PTR builds, and since I plan on raiding still once 3.0 drops, I'd like to get a feel for what's working well for others. I only had the PTR up for a short time yesterday, and didn't get a chance to take my bear out anywhere.

I went down the line and started picking stuff that sounded good, not having read up on the talents before, so I'm not really sure how well something like this will work. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Ronfar · 09/23/08, 1:38 PM

I apologize if there has been a definitive response to this earlier in the thread as I recall the question being asked, but search isn't cooperating with me today. Have LoTP and perhaps the iLoTP effect been changed to be raid wide? I think most of us assumed at the very least the base 5% crit would be raid wide, but the tooltips I've seen on Wowhead seem to suggest that it is still limited to one's immediate party. If the tooltips are incorrect, does the iLoTP heal also apply to all raid members?

tlbj6142 · 09/23/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by smurph98gt

Can you post your spec?

I think I am currently spec'd like this. Though I might only have 1/3 in PotP and 2/2 in iLotP. I was trying to stay a bit more cat focused while I leveled yet take a few bear talents to keep me safe in the 70-78 level 5-mans.

smurph98gt · 09/23/08, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

I think I am currently spec'd like this. Though I might only have 1/3 in PotP and 2/2 in iLotP. I was trying to stay a bit more cat focused while I leveled yet take a few bear talents to keep me safe in the 70-78 level 5-mans.

I gotcha. I'm going to try a full bear mode just to get a feel for it, but considering that I have a guild full of Pally tanks and Prot Warriors that having raging hardons for the current changes, I'll probably be spending more time in cat mode than not.

Edit: Speaking of cat. Is it worth getting Berserk and skipping over OOC? We all know and love OoC, but a tear shit up every 3 minutes ability seems really awesome.

• Melthu · 09/23/08, 1:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ronfar

I apologize if there has been a definitive response to this earlier in the thread as I recall the question being asked, but search isn't cooperating with me today. Have LoTP and perhaps the iLoTP effect been changed to be raid wide? I think most of us assumed at the very least the base 5% crit would be raid wide, but the tooltips I've seen on Wowhead seem to suggest that it is still limited to one's immediate party. If the tooltips are incorrect, does the iLoTP heal also apply to all raid members?

From GC:

As Werebeef pointed out, LotP is raid wide. The tooltip may be causing confusion because it says "party" while some say "raid" and some say "raid and party" or even "group." We need a consistency pass on all of those.

nightcrowler · 09/23/08, 2:44 PM

Originally Posted by Valerian

Uh FFF is a ridiculous amount of threat for something that is free. Has this been tested empirically (as in using FFF to pull and then seeing how much damage it takes to pull off you) rather than just with a threatmeter? It seems abnormally high to me otherwise.

I've tested the threatmeter with a rogue and a mage, it works perfectly fine. I've also tested FFF with the rogue and he need to do about 2.5k damage before pulling the mob, so it seems ok. But I'd like if someone else test it, basically because if that's true it means tha FFF should be used every CD instead of swipe (with mangle in cd and lac stacked) because it will do more threat than a swipe or a single lacerate.

On a side note:
seing how the threatmeter work there is something strange but not problematic, it seems that threat is pushed by the server 2 times, first time the static modifier plus some damage scaling (probably naked value) and in a second time is passed the equip scaling.

Lord BEEF · 09/23/08, 3:29 PM

Does feral faerie fire still have a 1.0 gcd in bear form? I can't remember if that was changed. If so, that's another edge for it in terms of threat per second

Astrylian · 09/23/08, 3:48 PM

Kind of. All the other abilities have GCDs in increments of 1.5 (unless you did 1/3 Imp Mangle, which wouldn't be worth it, I don't think), so there's no way to make use of it, other than to soak up your latency (which is an important effect).

(That said, I haven't actually checked the GCD of it on 3.0, it may have been fixed to be 1.5sec)

Mijae · 09/24/08, 2:10 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

BEAR base modifier (BM): 2.071428571 (it's basically a salvation included value of (1.3+1.15)/0.7 )

The following value are taken BEFORE the bear threat modifier:

Autoattack: dmg * BM (obviosly)
Mangle: 1.5 * dmg * BM
Maul: (285 + dmg) * BM
Swipe: dmg * BM
Lacerate (initial application): (285 + 0.5 * dmg ) * BM
Lacerate (dot): 0.5 * dmg * BM

Feral Fairie Fire: (553+dmg) * BM (where dmg is 0.05*ap+1)

What was changed?
- The have increased a bit the maul static component
- They have increased a lot lacerate scaling component (from 0.2 to 0.5), making it pretty good!
- They have increased a lot mangle scaling from 1.3 to 1.5 (pretty good!)

I dunno the data from level 80 because I can't log Beta, but if static threat scales like static damage it should be 809 for lacerate and 568 for maul.

Posted another update based on these threat modifier changes. I've also implemented diminishing returns on dodge based on newest results from http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/.

Based on the threat changes (only posting normalized values now):

Savage Fury: 357.19
LotP: 197.77
Primal Precision: 173.17
Rend & Tear: 117.54
Predatory Strikes: 101.2
Naturalist: 93.86
Imp Mangle: 89.74
Predatory Instincts: 86.08
Sharpened Claws: 79.11
Protector of the Pack: 65.1
Feral Instinct: 41.88
Shapeshifter (5): 41.3
SotF: 26.19

The biggest change is the position of Imp Mangle moving up in value (due to the increased modifier).

Nightcrowler - You said they increased the static threat component of Maul? I had this as 322 before, so 285 would actually be a reduction. I'll have to look up where I got that value from before.

Can anyone report on the static threat components for Maul, Lacerate, and FFF at level 80 (and 75 if possible)?

nightcrowler · 09/24/08, 2:35 AM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Nightcrowler - You said they increased the static threat component of Maul? I had this as 322 before, so 285 would actually be a reduction. I'll have to look up where I got that value from before.

It could be then, static value are more difficult to fit properly, on scaling value you can assume that blizzard is not crazy so if you have 1.51 for mangle or 0.495 for lacerate it's easy to assume that they really are 1.5 and 0.5, for static value it's more difficult, expecially for maul because it has a larger variety of damage (lacerate and FFF does every time the same damage if you fix the ap).

So maul probably is 322, I'll do further tests in the afternoon.

Astrylian · 09/24/08, 3:10 AM

Did some napkin math earlier today... Looks like (at least at about my gear level), it's suddenly worth it to drop lacerate in low rage situations, rather than Maul, on single targets, in 3.0. On 2+, Maul wins by a landslide. Maul's rage cost is gigantic, due to missing the rage from the auto attack, but with all the multipliers on it now, it's just as gigantic of a threat boost.