 |
10/02/08, 8:47 AM
|
#2566
|
|
Don Flamenco
Blood Elf Paladin
Drenden
|
Here's kind of a stupid question to feral druids from a paladin tank:
GC occasionally gets stuff wrong, but she's not dumb. Can anyone think of a way in which feral druids would take less magic damage than warrior tanks? I've gone through your talents and just aren't sure where that's coming from. Have the beta testers seen a ton of AoE damage? Or is it just that you guys have such hugely big health pools in t7 so that the impact of X amount of magic damage is significantly less than it would be for warriors (which wouldn't exactly be mitigation, but at least I'd understand what she meant)?
As a side thought, I've been reading the last few pages of discussion on how to respond to blizzard's call for bear nerfs (ouch. my sympathies). One thought I had is that, while I don't have a good answer, I suspect that taking the armor off jewelry might cause further problems for druids. While it would be great in the sense that it would free you guys from the tyranny of the Badge of Tenacity and other armor pieces, letting you swap in dps jewelry or whatever. However, a problem I haven't seen anyone mention is that tanking druids are still, AFAIK, perceived as the best dpsing tanks (sure, the gap is way smaller than it was, but its still there, just like pallies and AoE tanking. We're arguably still the best, but the gap is like 95% smaller than it used to be). If blizz changes tanking jewelry such that you can tank while wearing dps jewelry, you could start running into issues of doing too much damage while tanking so blizz might feel it had to nerf you again, which would suck.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 8:52 AM
|
#2567
|
|
Confused
Troll Druid
Alterac Mountains
|
It's not magic damage in general, but AoE damage. Our talent Predatory Insticts is being changed in WotLK to provide a flat 15% reduction in damage from AoE attacks. Coupled with 12% general damage reduction from Protector of the Pack and we'll be taking less than 75% damage from AoE attacks (not sure if this includes abilities like Whirlwind, but it certainly includes a lot of magic damage attacks that bosses tend to have).
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 8:55 AM
|
#2568
|
|
Piston Honda
Tauren Death Knight
Khadgar (EU)
|
Druid
Protector of the pack is 12% reduction to all damage.
Barkskin offers 20% damage reduction, 20% of the time. = 4%
Warrior
Defensive stance is 10% damage reduction to all damage.
Imp. def. stance is 6% damage reduction to magic damage.
+ spell reflect.
Overall druids are behind, however if for any reason the spell damage can be anticipated, but not reflected, druids come out ahead.
Given the recent buffs to warrior prot dps. I don't think a nerf for being the high dps tank, is something to worry too much about. Personally i'd still prefer it, if it meant i could choose which items i wanted to wear, and didn't have to keep another set of gear in my bags.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:03 AM
|
#2569
|
|
Piston Honda
No Account
Tauren Druid
No WoW Account
|
Personally, the idea of changing all the armor jewelry to "Equip: You gain 400 armor" seems right to me. This gives DKs their armor, and makes it worthwhile if we happen to run across a ring with nice tanking stats (hit, expertise, stam, str, agil) that just happens to include armor. It also means that they can chuck higher armor numbers on those rings knowing it affects all tanks equally.
Bear tanks are ahead in mitigation right now because of the itemization of jewelry. If you take off the jewelry, they actually fall behind or stay equal to warriors in armor numbers, which means they would have close to the same total mitigation numbers throughout the fight. They could then tweak the armor boost percentages or add a baseline armor boost to bear form to incrementally tweak the numbers upwards so that druids have the mitigation equality they are seeking.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:09 AM
|
#2570
|
|
King Hippo
Merple
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
|
Originally Posted by Mezoth
Personally, the idea of changing all the armor jewelry to "Equip: You gain 400 armor" seems right to me. This gives DKs their armor, and makes it worthwhile if we happen to run across a ring with nice tanking stats (hit, expertise, stam, str, agil) that just happens to include armor. It also means that they can chuck higher armor numbers on those rings knowing it affects all tanks equally.
Bear tanks are ahead in mitigation right now because of the itemization of jewelry. If you take off the jewelry, they actually fall behind or stay equal to warriors in armor numbers, which means they would have close to the same total mitigation numbers throughout the fight. They could then tweak the armor boost percentages or add a baseline armor boost to bear form to incrementally tweak the numbers upwards so that druids have the mitigation equality they are seeking.
|
That should be posted in the beta forums, if it isn't already.
|
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:15 AM
|
#2571
|
|
Mr. Sandman
|
Originally Posted by seminarca
edit: @Kazanir
Only this time around, there is progression for items with these stats. You've got Offering of Sacrifice at the preraid level, and Defender's Code at the raid level for trinkets. There is also a clear progression path for necks, rings and cloaks with bonus armor. They are going to make sure gear upgrades exist across tiers, they have said as much. As for armor scaling too well, this is why they are looking at reducing armor multipliers (many have reported a stealth nerfed 370% Dire Bear Form multiplier on beta).
|
The only way to balance the multiplier is to reduce it to the point where you need to stack full leather + armor jewelry in every slot to match plate, or to not do it at all and get rid of the stuff. The first option chains us to armor jewelry with no upgrade path, and the second frees us to use DPS jewelry. Anything in between makes the armor on jewelry completely imbalanced for us. It's a bad solution.
|
If not armor, what stat do you feel we should be chained to? Druid damage reduction only scales with 2 things (armor and avoidance), do you really care that much if it's armor? If you're wanting them to add some kind of a Druid:Warrior::AP:blockvalue mechanic, it's been suggested many times in the past both here and on the beta boards (by myself amongst others, so it's not like this is something that I am against or anything), but it's clearly something Blizzard isn't interested in. Realistically, it's not going to happen.
|
I have suggested a block-esque mechanic that scales with AP. It could proc on a dodge (scales with dodge, Agi) on an Omen of Clarity proc (scales with haste), on a Maul crit (scales with Agi, crit), on a string of connected hits with no intervening misses (scales with expertise, hit), or some other proc-element. I understand that they are reluctant to add this, but it's a better solution than trying to make straight mitigation + hp pools compensate in some way for the higher avoidance and the block mechanic of warriors and paladins. They are having the same problems with the survivability of DKs and working to fix it also.
As a matter of fact, one great solution here would be to make Imp. Leader of the Pack scale with AP instead of with HP for bears only (and scale better than the party version.) This would "replace" the block mechanic and the additional avoidance of plate-tanks with superior self-healing and scale with haste, agi, crit, and AP. Envision the following talents in those slots:
Leader of the Pack - 0/1
While in Cat or Dire Bear Form, your raid and party members within 45 yards heal themselves for 4% of their life total when they critically hit with a melee or ranged attack. This healing effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds. In addition, you gain 6% of your maximum mana when you benefit from this heal.
Improved Leader of the Pack - 0/2
Your Leader of the Pack aura also grants 2.5%/5% critical strike chance and, while in Dire Bear Form, your cooldown on the healing proc is reduced by 1.5/3 seconds. In addition, you heal an extra 5/10% of your AP each time you benefit from this heal.
This would basically replace the block mechanic and additional avoidance by letting us do a lot more of our own healing, reducing the amount necessary on bears over time while not making us any more able to survive a worst-case scenario (which is the current reason that bears on Beta are so imba.) I think I'll go push for a change of this nature.
|
Yes, it does suck that the shared jewellery we are having to use isn't optimal, but the same could be said about melee DPS jewellery. It's generally not going to have as much Stamina as one might want for a tanking item (or if it does, DPS classes will complain about wasted itemization points). Not only this, but it puts you into direct contention with all physical DPS classes, Rogues, Hunters, DPS Warriors, Enhancement Shamans, Ret Paladins, Cat Druids, DPS Deathknights; while letting tanking jewellery rot. And this really makes more sense to you than having not-quite-perfect jewellery to use?
|
Yes, it makes a LOT more sense. Plus it could solve the HP problem without any change to our bear form multiplier, just because we'll be using jewelry with less stamina on it than the tanking jewelry, making the bearform multipliers that increase our scaling more necessary.
|
FYI, there is no WotLK item with bonus armor in the neck, finger or cloak slot that has Parry Rating, Shield Block Rating or Shield Block Value that I can find on wowhead (Shadow of the Ghoul is a "normal armor" cloak). Defense, of course, is going to be mostly wasted. I know you were probably referring to Ring of Hardened Resolve, but hopefully we're not going to see a repeat of that.
|
I'd rather not have to worry about it entirely, replace our scaling with armor with scaling with a DPS stat, and leave all the defense items to plate-users. It's much more elegant and would solve all the problems of the past 2 years.
The problem with armor jewelry still exists. Look at the trinket slots -- from ilvls 200 to 226, there is one armor trinket. That means at the end of Naxx 25, with full 213- or 226-epics in every other slot, I'll still be chained to using a blue trinket in every other slot. THAT'S BAD.
Originally Posted by Korhaug
They're going to calculate the loot tables to account for rogues and druids wanting leather, and rogues, druids, shamans, hunters, warriors, paladins, and death knights are going to end up rolling for it.
Prepare yourself accordingly.
|
That's a problem with your guild then. There is ample tanking plate and DPS plate and mail to go around and they should use that. This is a loot system question though and they shouldn't design a class around it.

Originally Posted by Wrathblood
Here's kind of a stupid question to feral druids from a paladin tank:
GC occasionally gets stuff wrong, but she's not dumb. Can anyone think of a way in which feral druids would take less magic damage than warrior tanks? I've gone through your talents and just aren't sure where that's coming from. Have the beta testers seen a ton of AoE damage? Or is it just that you guys have such hugely big health pools in t7 so that the impact of X amount of magic damage is significantly less than it would be for warriors (which wouldn't exactly be mitigation, but at least I'd understand what she meant)?
As a side thought, I've been reading the last few pages of discussion on how to respond to blizzard's call for bear nerfs (ouch. my sympathies). One thought I had is that, while I don't have a good answer, I suspect that taking the armor off jewelry might cause further problems for druids. While it would be great in the sense that it would free you guys from the tyranny of the Badge of Tenacity and other armor pieces, letting you swap in dps jewelry or whatever. However, a problem I haven't seen anyone mention is that tanking druids are still, AFAIK, perceived as the best dpsing tanks (sure, the gap is way smaller than it was, but its still there, just like pallies and AoE tanking. We're arguably still the best, but the gap is like 95% smaller than it used to be). If blizz changes tanking jewelry such that you can tank while wearing dps jewelry, you could start running into issues of doing too much damage while tanking so blizz might feel it had to nerf you again, which would suck.
|
I think the issue is that with us taking 75% of damage from all AoE magic attacks, they feel a little constricted in the design of bosses who use that style of damage (i.e. dragons) as a major part of their damage output on tanks. Combine it with a 15% HP advantage and voila! Problems abound.
There is still that perception but I'm not worried about it. All tanks do hilarious damage while tanking now and the big numbers should compensate for any whining in that department. Just ask warriors who are revenging for 2 rage and 2.5k damage or whatever.
|
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
You can come with me. I can protect you.
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:31 AM
|
#2572
|
|
Piston Honda
|
Originally Posted by Mezoth
Personally, the idea of changing all the armor jewelry to "Equip: You gain 400 armor" seems right to me. This gives DKs their armor, and makes it worthwhile if we happen to run across a ring with nice tanking stats (hit, expertise, stam, str, agil) that just happens to include armor. It also means that they can chuck higher armor numbers on those rings knowing it affects all tanks equally.
Bear tanks are ahead in mitigation right now because of the itemization of jewelry. If you take off the jewelry, they actually fall behind or stay equal to warriors in armor numbers, which means they would have close to the same total mitigation numbers throughout the fight. They could then tweak the armor boost percentages or add a baseline armor boost to bear form to incrementally tweak the numbers upwards so that druids have the mitigation equality they are seeking.
|
While it's true that you could do this at level 80 (which they seem to want to balance this around), I'd have a really boring month waiting for lich king if the old jewellry was nerfed (I guess down to 19k armor - didn't run the numbers -, which is what I had the day I turned 70). Not being able to tank Gruul in sunwell gear would be a kick in the nuts.
And if the old jewellry wasn't changed, ferals would still use the kara ring at T9 level (or badge+swp ring).
The obvious solution (to me) would be to nerf the bear armor to, say, 300%. And then make Thick Hide convert some armor to something useful (dodge? similar to the warrior talent Armored to the Teeth, but not AP since we have a ton of it on Rogue gear).
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:36 AM
|
#2573
|
|
Mr. Sandman
Night Elf Druid
Argent Dawn (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Kazanir
That's a problem with your guild then. There is ample tanking plate and DPS plate and mail to go around and they should use that. This is a loot system question though and they shouldn't design a class around it.
|
More like a problem with item design and budget. You can't blame mail or plate classes for wanting the best in slot items for their gear. If that happens to be leather due to itemisation it isn't their fault. If a new version of [Gloves of the Immortal] dropped druids would be all over it, whether or not it was also best in slot for magic dps.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:39 AM
|
#2574
|
|
Von Kaiser
Night Elf Druid
Lightbringer (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Mezoth
Personally, the idea of changing all the armor jewelry to "Equip: You gain 400 armor" seems right to me. This gives DKs their armor, and makes it worthwhile if we happen to run across a ring with nice tanking stats (hit, expertise, stam, str, agil) that just happens to include armor. It also means that they can chuck higher armor numbers on those rings knowing it affects all tanks equally.
|
Death Knights also have an armor multiplier when in frost presence (about 145% untalented, 166.75% talented iirc). Turning the extra jewelry armor into an "Equip:" screws them.
Frankly I'm surprised we so quickly abandoned the simple but effective suggestion of removing armor from feral staves. It would put the armor cap back where it belongs (unreachable or at least a couple tiers farther), not affect other classes sharing our tank jewelry, and potentially reduce the bloat in loot tables by halving the number of staves (frankly there are too many at the moment, and once your feral has what he needs, it's loot rot again).
Simply ensuring only "neutral" stats are on staves (i.e. no armor, no dodge rating, but FAP, agility, stamina (not too much - so it also helps fix bears' reported excessive HP pool), the odd socket etc) would reduce the current pointless feral stave bloat and remove the need for having separate DPS and tanking sticks. Plus, weapons were already swappable in combat, so we gain no undue benefits from the change (well - apart from a bag slot :-) ).
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:44 AM
|
#2575
|
|
Confused
Troll Druid
Alterac Mountains
|
Originally Posted by Merple
That should be posted in the beta forums, if it isn't already.
|
Kazanir already did, some time ago.
However, I'm not sure I agree that such a solution would help Death Knights. I'll state right now that I know almost nothing about them, but I do know that they get an armor bonus like we do (though much lower, obviously). Making the armor an equip bonus will prevent them from getting a bonus as well, and armor appears to be a major problem for DK's at the moment. From an itemization standpoint the easiest solution is just to remove the bear form armor modifier from non-leather gear slots. That way plate tanks can still get some armor on jewelery slots, DK's can get a little bonus to make up for the lack of a shield, and we don't hold onto ilvl 200 blue trinkets into Icecrown. I don't know if this is easy to implement from a coding perspective, but if they can keep armor enchants from getting the bear form multiplier I think it would be feasible to do this too.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:47 AM
|
#2576
|
|
Confused
Troll Druid
Alterac Mountains
|
Originally Posted by Gruturistic
Frankly I'm surprised we so quickly abandoned the simple but effective suggestion of removing armor from feral staves. It would put the armor cap back where it belongs (unreachable or at least a couple tiers farther), not affect other classes sharing our tank jewelry, and potentially reduce the bloat in loot tables by halving the number of staves (frankly there are too many at the moment, and once your feral has what he needs, it's loot rot again).
Simply ensuring only "neutral" stats are on staves (i.e. no armor, no dodge rating, but FAP, agility, stamina (not too much - so it also helps fix bears' reported excessive HP pool), the odd socket etc) would reduce the current pointless feral stave bloat and remove the need for having separate DPS and tanking sticks. Plus, weapons were already swappable in combat, so we gain no undue benefits from the change (well - apart from a bag slot :-) ).
|
The problem, as has already been pointed out, is that this does nothing to free us from the death grip that armored jewelery slots currently have on us. Maybe you don't have a problem using a quest blue trinket due entirely to its bonus armor, but it's not really a great way to balance the game.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 9:55 AM
|
#2577
|
|
King Hippo
Merple
Undead Priest
No WoW Account
|
Originally Posted by Gruturistic
Death Knights also have an armor multiplier when in frost presence (about 145% untalented, 166.75% talented iirc). Turning the extra jewelry armor into an "Equip:" screws them.
|
Blizzard can easily account for this by buffing their armour modifier. Classes don't exist in a vacuum.
I personally find that armour trinkets and rings are more of an issue for us than our weapon. Armour on the weapon gives flexibility. It's one of the more powerful tools that druids can use in PvP to stay flexible - gaining 2500 armour v a rogue or warrior in PvP is no small matter - and contributes to our ability to emergency tank for similar reasons. I'd prefer they waited until they were ready to get rid of FAP before changing this.
Accessory slot armour, on the other hand, not only defies logic in many ways (my ring provides more physical protection than my helmet) but also unfairly weights us toward a single stat. Changing it to an Equip: modifier means that it provides the same value to all classes, and allow us to treat it as a bonus instead of the critical factor.
Consider the 4T4 bonus for bears. It was really nice to have (hell, I still wish I had it), but it wasn't critical to tanking. You could upgrade and move away from that piece as the next piece became available with more alternative stats.
|
-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.
|
|
|
10/02/08, 10:07 AM
|
#2578
|
|
Mr. Sandman
|
I'm currently making a large post summarizing these issues on the beta boards. I made several in a different thread but I'm not sure if it got seen and the thread was started by a warrior (thanks Rioht  ) and full of idiotic trolls.
By the way, removing armor from feral staves wouldn't fix the problem in the slightest. Fix 30% of the problem, maybe.
|
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
You can come with me. I can protect you.
|
|
|
10/02/08, 10:09 AM
|
#2579
|
|
Von Kaiser
Tauren Druid
Mazrigos (EU)
|
Originally Posted by Vaccine
More like a problem with item design and budget. You can't blame mail or plate classes for wanting the best in slot items for their gear. If that happens to be leather due to itemisation it isn't their fault. If a new version of [Gloves of the Immortal] dropped druids would be all over it, whether or not it was also best in slot for magic dps.
|
Exactly. Blizzard is well aware of this issue, and have taken some steps to address the situation (Shamans now recieve 1 AP from int, warriors recieve extra AP from armor, etc). In the end it will still come down to itemization. I personally believe that many mail and plate users will still prefer leather pieces for their melee dps gear, simply because they're going to be itemized better for them.
Originally Posted by Melthu
However, I'm not sure I agree that such a solution would help Death Knights. I'll state right now that I know almost nothing about them, but I do know that they get an armor bonus like we do (though much lower, obviously). Making the armor an equip bonus will prevent them from getting a bonus as well, and armor appears to be a major problem for DK's at the moment. From an itemization standpoint the easiest solution is just to remove the bear form armor modifier from non-leather gear slots. That way plate tanks can still get some armor on jewelery slots, DK's can get a little bonus to make up for the lack of a shield, and we don't hold onto ilvl 200 blue trinkets into Icecrown. I don't know if this is easy to implement from a coding perspective, but if they can keep armor enchants from getting the bear form multiplier I think it would be feasible to do this too.
|
Blizzard are not going implement a different armor multiplier for leather and non-leather pieces. It's a convoluted and non-consistent system, and it's just not going to happen. The solution will either be itemization (itemize certain pieces with less armor, remove armor from certain pieces) or to lower the armor multiplier of bear form.
|
|
|
|
|
10/02/08, 10:11 AM
|
#2580
|
|
Von Kaiser
|
Ive got a question for the beta-testers about druidtanking.
Could a good druid be able to use more dps-oriented trinkets and jewelry instead of stacking everything with armor by using our cooldowns and consumables at the right time? Or is threat and DPS trivial when it comes to tanking?
I find myself using more and more dps-pieces in sunwell to keep the DPS from being threat-capped.
And now when we finally got cooldowns and consumables to use in bearform it would be awesome if good use of those would do more than just make us take less damage.
When everything comes around it doesn't matter if you take 500.000 damage or 700.000 damage in a fight unless healers cant keep you and everyone else alive because of it.
Ive never heard anyone say "this tank is awesome, he takes so little damage" but ive heard alot of people say "this tank is crap, hes not building enough threat".
If neither threat nor DPS matter at all as a tank, all we need to do is take as little damage as possible.
I would much rather build more threat and DPS than save my MT-healer a couple of heals he could throw at me anyway.
If you take so much less damage that you can switch a healer for another DPS things change, but lets say thats not the case.
(Im not counting with stuff like situational awareness, positioning, quickness etc since i believe every good tank should know those things.)
|
|
|
|
|
|