Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 174

Vaccine · 10/02/08, 1:44 PM

Leader of the Pack - 0/1

While in Cat or Dire Bear Form, your raid and party members within 45 yards heal themselves for 4% of their life total when they critically hit with a melee or ranged attack. This healing effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds. In addition, you gain 6% of your maximum mana when you benefit from this heal.

Improved Leader of the Pack - 0/2

Your Leader of the Pack aura also grants 2.5%/5% critical strike chance and, while in Dire Bear Form, your cooldown on the healing proc is reduced by 1.5/3 seconds. In addition, you heal an extra 5/10% of your AP each time you benefit from this heal.

This and the whole bear self healing as a serious mechanic is one of the worst ideas I've seen.

- Overheal is collosal. You're health is full, heal goes wasted. You dodge an attack, heal goes wasted.
- Timing is a huge issue. On your suggeseted 3 second cd you could quite easily get into a chain where every 3 seconds it procs but its coming in between heals and boss attacks. More overheal/waste.
- It scales negatively with avoidance, the more you get the less effective this is as it causes a higher % to be lost on overheal because it procs after a dodge.
- You gut LotP turning a 1 point talent with options into a 3 point talent for cats.
- You have huge knock on potential for PvP/Arena.

The bottom line of these suggestions is that you gain practically nothing. You can't ditch a healer if you've got a Druid tank over another. You can't have healers relax on you more because the unpredictable nature of it. The sole idea behind this seems to be that vs an extremely hard hitting boss once in a blue moon you'll get a proc at the right time and possibly save your life. Healers as you well know aim to time their heals on such fights to land after hits like these, and in succession. 99% of the time though its going to be covered by healers or just line up completely wrong wtih the hit taken.

Merple · 10/02/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

A max hybrid build might look like this, with 4 points spare to shift around: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is close to what I'm planning on running in the expansion. I was actually looking at Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
instead, as 1 point in FI doesn't do much for me.

I'm trying to find the maximum DPS spec with 5 points available between Shredding Attacks and Feral Aggression. I do not have access to 2T6. As such, I'm thinking that shred will be my go-to, meaning that I've only got 3 points for FA

Still, it should accomplish everything I want to do with my druid this expansion.

Janraea · 10/02/08, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

This and the whole bear self healing as a serious mechanic is one of the worst ideas I've seen.

- Overheal is collosal. You're health is full, heal goes wasted. You dodge an attack, heal goes wasted.
- Timing is a huge issue. On your suggeseted 3 second cd you could quite easily get into a chain where every 3 seconds it procs but its coming in between heals and boss attacks. More overheal/waste.
- It scales negatively with avoidance, the more you get the less effective this is as it causes a higher % to be lost on overheal because it procs after a dodge.
- You gut LotP turning a 1 point talent with options into a 3 point talent for cats.
- You have huge knock on potential for PvP/Arena.

The bottom line of these suggestions is that you gain practically nothing. You can't ditch a healer if you've got a Druid tank over another. You can't have healers relax on you more because the unpredictable nature of it. The sole idea behind this seems to be that vs an extremely hard hitting boss once in a blue moon you'll get a proc at the right time and possibly save your life. Healers as you well know aim to time their heals on such fights to land after hits like these, and in succession. 99% of the time though its going to be covered by healers or just line up completely wrong wtih the hit taken.

1) Overheal on normal LotP is pretty huge as well. Overheal on Vampiric Embrace is large as well. This is a non-argument, unless you think the numbers are balanced around matching blocking numbers. The overheal of keeping a lifebloom ticking on the tank is pretty crazy, but regular additional heals even out damage spikes. Sure they're overheals most of the time, but the times that they're not, they really help.

2) All heal over times scale negatively with avoidance. If you think you'll be spending 95% of a fight at full health in a raid you don't overgear in WotLK, you haven't been following the mana/hp changes. Healers will have mana problems in fights now, and spamming overheals at you is a horible waste.

3) I.. I'm not grasping your point. The 5% crit is no longer required for a cat, since we can get it from other sources now. It's a raid buff, you know. Most of those cost more than one talent point - there's no reason ours should be nearly free.

4)Do you use 'knock' to mean bonus here? Cause I can't see how gaining health we didn't gain before can be a *bad* thing.. I don't think ferals need to worry about becoming overpowered in arenas.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. It's not huge - that's kind of the point. It's just a way to let them nerf our mitigation while giving us a nice mechanic to let us scale in a useful way with some of the pointless rogue stats we'll be swimming in. 99% of the time, eh? I'd be curious to see the simulation on that one.

Malazaar · 10/02/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

3) I.. I'm not grasping your point. The 5% crit is no longer required for a cat, since we can get it from other sources now. It's a raid buff, you know. Most of those cost more than one talent point - there's no reason ours should be nearly free.

That is like saying you don't need to spec mangle in a dps spec because, well ... there are arms warriors that can provide for it. If you only raid and you have a fury warrior with you at all times, your argument might be acceptable but that is certainly not the case for everyone.

Most Buffs comparable to LotP are actually 1 point as well (or even buyable) - Rampage, Trueshot Aura to name a few. This just further bloats up our tree and takes away choices.

Also, a fully talented LotP still takes 3 not 1 talent point. However, many druids choose not to take iLotP (which will affect the entire raid) because they feel their point are best spend somewhere else.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 2:52 PM

Just completed my analysis of Swipe+Thorns vs Consecration+Retribution Aura: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Swipe: You're not done yet.

I understand that 1734 spell power on the paladin is a generous amount, but note that only 4% of spell power goes into Consecration per tick.

I just did some testing; please note that dodges/blocks/parries/misses/resists are neglected.

Paladin stats: 1734 spell power and 1054 attack power.

2.72 threat modifier on all holy damage

1 Consecration = 4872 threat
Over 8 seconds this is 609 tps (threat per second).

1 Retribution Aura proc = 226 damage for 615 threat
For a mob with a 1.5 attack speed this is 410 tps.

This means when an infinite number of mobs are tanked, a Paladin is generating 1019 tps per target on all mobs.

Druid stats: 3455 attack power with 30% crit.

2.08 threat modifer on all damage done

Note that these tests were done against a level 74 mob, so the actual damage which Swipe would deal is lessened when attacking level 82 (raid) mobs.

1 Swipe at 318 damage = 660 theat
Accounting for critical strikes:
660*2*.3 + 660*.7 = 858 threat per swipe
In one GCD of 1.5 seconds, this is 572 tps.

1 Thorn proc = 85 damage for 177 threat.
For a mob with a 1.5 attack speed this is 118 tps.

This means when an infinite number of mobs are tanked, a Druid is generating 690 tps per target on all mobs, ignoring positional requirements.

Assume a warlock with 1000 spell power and 30% crit can cast one Seed of Corruption every 2.5 seconds. SoC does 1765 base damage on all targets, with the gear added in, that is an additional 166 damage per target, for a total of 1931 damage per target. If crits are taken into account (recall that caster crits deal 1.5 times as much damage, not 2 times):
1931*1.5*.3 + 1931*.7 = 2221 damage

2221 damage / 2.5 seconds = 740 dps = 740 tps

If the warlock was specced Affliction, then this number would be 15% higher due to Shadow Mastery and Contagion, then reduced by 10% due to the threat talent.

Essentially, Paladins are generating sufficient threat to hold aggro over this conservative estimate of Warlock SoC spam. However, Druids are lagging behind by almost 50%. Note that this model neglected the lost swipes due to its positional requirement and decreased range. If it is Blizzard's intention that tanks be selected based on individual player skill and not class abilities, then Swipe is not done yet.

I recommend attaching a specific threat modifier to it or increasing its damage greatly. Obviously the second choice would send Swipe spam in the realm of "overpoweredness." Whatever is decided, just know that Swipe+Thorns is not yet equal to Consecrate+Retribution Aura.

Vaccine · 10/02/08, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

1) Overheal on normal LotP is pretty huge as well. Overheal on Vampiric Embrace is large as well. This is a non-argument, unless you think the numbers are balanced around matching blocking numbers. The overheal of keeping a lifebloom ticking on the tank is pretty crazy, but regular additional heals even out damage spikes. Sure they're overheals most of the time, but the times that they're not, they really help.

2) All heal over times scale negatively with avoidance. If you think you'll be spending 95% of a fight at full health in a raid you don't overgear in WotLK, you haven't been following the mana/hp changes. Healers will have mana problems in fights now, and spamming overheals at you is a horible waste.

3) I.. I'm not grasping your point. The 5% crit is no longer required for a cat, since we can get it from other sources now. It's a raid buff, you know. Most of those cost more than one talent point - there's no reason ours should be nearly free.

4)Do you use 'knock' to mean bonus here? Cause I can't see how gaining health we didn't gain before can be a *bad* thing.. I don't think ferals need to worry about becoming overpowered in arenas.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. It's not huge - that's kind of the point. It's just a way to let them nerf our mitigation while giving us a nice mechanic to let us scale in a useful way with some of the pointless rogue stats we'll be swimming in. 99% of the time, eh? I'd be curious to see the simulation on that one.

1) True but iLotP was intended for groups that didn't get focus heals against small aoe damage. It wasn't put in as a self buff to help bear tanks. Lifebloom is rolled at the moment because its ridiculously overpowered and thats been addressed in WotLK.

2) Right...but this is being touted as a trade off for reducing our mitigation. Yer spamming overheals is a waste, this talent though isn't going to change that, because a healer can't rely on it to provide a heal in his place.

3) What isn't to grasp? Raiding cat builds aren't going to be going into iLotP. This change forces them 3 points in instead of 1. You point at fury warriors saying "other people can provide the buff" then say most cost more than one point... the direct equivalent doesn't why should this? Also you aren't thinking about what happens if your guild either doesn't have 100% attendance fury warrior or doesn't have one at all.

4) Yes I mean bonus.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. The random nature of it makes it impossible to rely on so what do you really gain? Hell, its hardly any difference from the current mechanic.

Longhorn · 10/02/08, 3:31 PM

Regarding the talent: Primal Precision (increases expertise by 10, refunds 80% of energy if you miss a finishing move).

I see many people including this in their bear builds in beta, however I'm wondering at what point we can drop it for other tanking talents? As we well know our gear is LOADED with expertise. Mid to late T7 I'm thinking. Currently my bear has 151 expertise points which converts into 18 expertise rating. With the talent I'm sitting at a 28 expertise rating.

For tanking being able to drop this talent (if its not providing anythign anyway) would be nice, even though it provides a lot of bang for its buck. It means we could toss the other 2 points into improved leader of the pack, rend and tear, or even brutal impact if you're doing a lot of heroics.

Maeltne · 10/02/08, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Just completed my analysis of Swipe+Thorns vs Consecration+Retribution Aura: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Swipe: You're not done yet.

I understand that 1734 spell power on the paladin is a generous amount, but note that only 4% of spell power goes into Consecration per tick.

The relevant values for me are 609 tps for Consecreate, and 572 tps for Swipe spam. This is close enough, and your spell power questionable enough, that I can be happy with it. Ret aura/thorns can be removed from the calculation (aside from potential thorn 'bug') as either can get both.

Janraea · 10/02/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

1)
2) Right...but this is being touted as a trade off for reducing our mitigation. Yer spamming overheals is a waste, this talent though isn't going to change that, because a healer can't rely on it to provide a heal in his place.

3) What isn't to grasp? Raiding cat builds aren't going to be going into iLotP. This change forces them 3 points in instead of 1. You point at fury warriors saying "other people can provide the buff" then say most cost more than one point... the direct equivalent doesn't why should this? Also you aren't thinking about what happens if your guild either doesn't have 100% attendance fury warrior or doesn't have one at all.

4) Yes I mean bonus.

The bottom line is that you don't really have a grasp on the impact of this mechanic on raiding. The random nature of it makes it impossible to rely on so what do you really gain? Hell, its hardly any difference from the current mechanic.

1) What a talent was 'intended for' isn't a good argument here. We're talking about *changing the intent*. Lifebloom rolling will still be done in WotLK, it's just less powerful. The value of a constant heal over time is not in doubt, if that's what you're trying to imply.

2) This talent isn't going to change the inefficiency of spamming overheals, but the inefficiency of spamming overheals changes the healing model significantly. Keeping a feral tank topped off is only necessary on spiky bosses, since we have larger health pools - the amount of actual healing done is controlled by how much of the time a tank spends not at max health. I don't know if you remember pre-BC raiding, but back when mana was an issue, overhealing done was the main metric by which the skill of a healer was determined.

3) This is no different from other class's situations - you spend talent points to get a raid buff, unless you can convince someone else to take it. If your argument is that cats would rather it be one talent point than three, then sure. They'd also rather it be baseline than one talent point. It's irrelevant to the discussion, until after they stop making changes, and we hit 80 and see where our dps is at.

I have an excellent grasp of the effect something like this would have in raiding. It would be significant, but not overpowering (like it would be if every proc were actual healing). The random nature of critical strikes makes them impossible to rely on as well, so would you propose that holy paladins stop stacking it? What you really gain is a significant amount of health every fight.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by Maeltne

The relevant values for me are 609 tps for Consecreate, and 572 tps for Swipe spam. This is close enough, and your spell power questionable enough, that I can be happy with it. Ret aura/thorns can be removed from the calculation (aside from potential thorn 'bug') as either can get both.

This is a self-only buff: Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

coredumperror · 10/02/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Just completed my analysis of Swipe+Thorns vs Consecration+Retribution Aura: WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Swipe: You're not done yet.

I understand that 1734 spell power on the paladin is a generous amount, but note that only 4% of spell power goes into Consecration per tick.

Did you do the math on Damage Shield + Thunderclap? I know close to nothing about tclap, but Damage Shield seems overpowered compared to every other AOE threat mechanics, even consecrate. 20% of block value as a permanent self-only thorns aura scales amazingly well with gear (10str/5BV per 1 damage, vs. 10str/20spellpower per 1 dmg on Consecrate). Apparently, Damage Shield procs can crit as well (taken from a wowhead comment... with a grain of salt). This is so many leagues ahead of Thorns that it's not even worth talking about Thorns in the same discussion.

Astrylian · 10/02/08, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

This is a self-only buff: Righteous Fury - Spell - World of Warcraft

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

Malazaar · 10/02/08, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

Also, Paladins are getting a lot more from thorns due to the spellpower they have.

Falk · 10/02/08, 4:53 PM

I just ran Utgarde Keep and got both the tank belt AND Enraged Feral Staff, on the first run. :P Too bad that kind of luck won't see me on live.

The staff is now 700 Armor... looks like they're at least reading feedback. 700 is still kinda high, though...

Salex · 10/02/08, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Bears can have Ret Aura, and Paladins can have Thorns. However, only when the other is around, which makes bears worse aoe tanks for 5mans, and sometimes 10mans.

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

BTW, if NI giving spell power now, since there is no +heal anymore, then:

A T7 druid with 2/2N NI would be at about ~1000 spell power. At the posted thorns scaling rate (6-7%) ~+65 damage (+135.2 threat/hit -> +90 TPS)

If you were crazy enough to go brambles -> 364 TPS total for thorns. (BTW, Thorns would be hitting for 262 damage here.. -- rogue killer in PVP?)

... If NI gives spell power...

BTW, has anyone run numbers on Genesis with the new rake for cat dps?