Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 175

Deathwing · 10/02/08, 5:12 PM

Nurturing Instinct still says it only applies to healing spells.

I kinda like the idea. Reeks of band-aid, though, and I don't have the talent points to spare anyway.

Duilliath · 10/02/08, 5:13 PM

Just a stupid question, but where the hell are you going to find 8 more talent points to get down to Brambles when most people have trouble fitting everything into a 'normal' feral build ?

--

Sadris, I seem to have missed it, but did you take the standard Salvation baked into DPS classes into account ? 740 dmg = 740 threat seems to imply you didn't, though I might be misreading. 40% off would land it @ 444, which is below the TPS the Druid in your example is generating.

Krag · 10/02/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Salex

BTW, if NI giving spell power now, since there is no +heal anymore

There is still both healing and damage for spells, just only spellpower on gear which gives both. Talents can give bonuses to either or both and as Deathwing says NI only gives a bonus to healing.

Salex · 10/02/08, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Krag

There is still both healing and damage for spells, just only spellpower on gear which gives both. Talents can give bonuses to either or both and as Deathwing says NI only gives a bonus to healing.

That would be too bad, but I never trust tooltips in a beta..

If it did give spell damage, I wonder if it would make moonfire viable for cat DPS rotation (assuming furor)...

dukes · 10/02/08, 5:29 PM

Just been on beta to make sure, and it doesn't give spell power, it's just healing.

Maeltne · 10/02/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

EDIT: What sadris is trying to point out though is that even with bears getting Ret Aura, they get less threat out of it due to not having RF.

As I understand it, please correct me if I am wrong. Druid get a threat modifier in bear form, warriors get one with defensive stance, and paladins get one with Righteous Fury.

Would not the Ret aura be subject to our Bear modifier, similarly to how it is increased by a paladins righteous fury?

Krag · 10/02/08, 5:39 PM

Originally Posted by Salex

BTW, has anyone run numbers on Genesis with the new rake for cat dps?

Rake and Lacerate ticks for the same with 0/5 and 5/5 Genesis so it's just for spell dots it would seem. I'll check Rip for completeness once my hearthstone is up.

Edit: No bonus for Rip either as expected.

Astrylian · 10/02/08, 5:40 PM

I thought they added an extra base multiplier in for pallies, and Holy just has an even higher multiplier for them. Ours is 2.07, i think (going off memory here), and theirs for Holy is 2.72.

Falk · 10/02/08, 5:55 PM

RF is a higher multiplier than Bear/Defensive Stance.

...Well, at least, it is on Live at the moment.

Edit: Aaaand, shouldn't leave windows open for hours.

teiglin · 10/02/08, 6:15 PM

Has anyone suggested that they just make thorns scale with AP as well as (or even instead of) spellpower, like pally spells? It would be very welcome scaling for us with our high AP equipment, and would at least allow our reactive threat to scale like warriors and pallies.

I'm also frustrated at the limitations on swipe. Positioning requirements aside (which are more an inconvenience than a serious limitation), swipe requires literally spamming on every GCD to compete with an pally spell that lasts 8s or a warrior spell on a 6s cd. During that time warriors or pallies could be generating threat on a single, larger target for single target dps to focus on, or tab-spamming abilities to increase overall AoE threat. Even if it is putting out comparable overall tps, the fact that it takes every single GCD is a problem. I'd honestly be in favor of adding a short cd to swipe and buffing its damage to be comparable to thunder clap, or something.

♦ Regen · 10/02/08, 6:51 PM

Originally Posted by teiglin

Has anyone suggested that they just make thorns scale with AP as well as (or even instead of) spellpower, like pally spells? It would be very welcome scaling for us with our high AP equipment, and would at least allow our reactive threat to scale like warriors and pallies.

I'm also frustrated at the limitations on swipe. Positioning requirements aside (which are more an inconvenience than a serious limitation), swipe requires literally spamming on every GCD to compete with an pally spell that lasts 8s or a warrior spell on a 6s cd. During that time warriors or pallies could be generating threat on a single, larger target for single target dps to focus on, or tab-spamming abilities to increase overall AoE threat. Even if it is putting out comparable overall tps, the fact that it takes every single GCD is a problem. I'd honestly be in favor of adding a short cd to swipe and buffing its damage to be comparable to thunder clap, or something.

Mangle + Maul? Seriously, nothing is forcing you to swipe every single GCD, you are basically whining at blizzard because you are doing it wrong.

Do we have to work harder to achieve good aoe threat? Yes, and even more so in regards to warriors.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Mangle + Maul? Seriously, nothing is forcing you to swipe every single GCD, you are basically whining at blizzard because you are doing it wrong.

Mangle and Maul hits 1 to 2 targets. Swipe hits infinity targets.

Here is the model assuming both the Druid and the Paladin have Retribution Aura + Thorns. Paladin stats changed as recommended by the BB to 724 SP and 2308 AP.

Edit: Didn't account for Naturalist...

kalbear · 10/02/08, 7:03 PM

I'm not sure single target will be so problematic, to be honest. With swipe and primal fury bears will actually be gaining rage with swipe quite a bit of the time. Maul should be able to be used nearly 100% of the time with 6 or more swiped mobs. Given how good maul is, I don't know that mangle would even need to be up to keep reasonable single-target threat. The disadvantage is simply that the AoE threat is already less, and if a druid needs to do anything else other than spam swipe (such as taunt, break a snare, charge, whatever) they'll lose a disproportionate amount of AoE threat to a paladin, DK or warrior.

♦ Regen · 10/02/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Mangle and Maul hits 1 to 2 targets. Swipe hits infinity targets.

Here is the model assuming both the Druid and the Paladin have Retribution Aura + Thorns. Paladin stats changed as recommended by the BB to 724 SP and 2308 AP.

Edit: Didn't account for Naturalist...

Ok so you're basically confirming paladins have slightly better aoe tps. Am I missing something?

In almost every situation where there are mass targets that must be aoe'd down their health is reasonably low making the threat threshold fairly low in a raid setting. In any situation where say you have to generate aoe threat on 3 targets druids have a much better time holding aoe threat + main assist threat simultaneously via mangle/maul cycling.

edit: we are basically arguing nothing / things that already exist in the game. Someone is going to have better aoe threat (hello paladins), just as well as we will have our advantages.... even if the goal is to keep all tanks in-line within reason.

• sadris · 10/02/08, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Regen

Ok so you're basically confirming paladins have slightly better aoe tps. Am I missing something?

edit: we are basically arguing nothing / things that already exist in the game. Someone is going to have better aoe threat (hello paladins), just as well as we will have our advantages.... even if the goal is to keep all tanks in-line within reason.

They have 150 more tps, which is a lot when you are only on the order of 750 tps. A tank is not interchangeable with another if it is just barely above a conservative warlock AOE spam estimate and the tank has perfect conditions. Also, it is important to remember that this requires no latency and the usage of Swipe on every GCD, and that all the mobs are in front of oneself. Paladins are still able to use abilities like Holy Shield and Avenger's Shield as Consecration has an 8 second cooldown.

Blizzard has stated that they are trying to remove advantages between tanks such that an encounter does not require their presence.