Under that case, including the parry and the forgotten naturalist multiplier, we'd have:
(base + ap/14)*FI*(1-armor reduced)*(landed hits)*(hit+PI meta gem crit mod)*naturalist
(108 + 6636/14)*1.3*(1-.261969)*(1-.146645)*(1+0.372895*1.26)*1.1 = 770.4 avg dmg per swipe
770.4 dmg/swipe * 1 swipe/1.5 sec = 513.6 DPS
513.6 DPS * (1.45/0.7) threat/dmg = 1063.9 TPS

This means that for non boss level targets, swipe is even stronger than originally perceived, since parry and miss rates are considerably lower. If avoided attacks were lowered to 3.4% (do even level mobs only have 5% parry?), the swipe numbers go up to 581.3 DPS and 1204.2 TPS against even levels before even factoring in effective increased crit and lower mob armor.

Max rank consecrate is (.32*(ap+spellpower)+904)/8 for base DPS, times 1.1 one handed spec multiplier, with a 1.13 raid buffed spell dmg modifier and 2.72 threat modifier. A paladin with 4k ap and 1400 spellpower ends up with 408.9 DPS and 1112.3 TPS. Those numbers seriously look more like what a ret paladin would have opposed to a prot paladin, but even if prot had those kind of stats, they're still be lower on DPS with a slight lead on TPS against boss level mobs and still slightly behind overall against even levels.

Main point is, unless paladins are suffering with aoe threat (in which case either dps' aoe or all tanks' aoe threat needs to be looked at), swipe should be sufficient for aoe purposes. Yeah, it'd be nice if it were tripled in damage and on a 6 sec cd so you don't have to spam it, but at that point, all you're really asking for is a mangle that hits everything 8 yards in front of you.

the AoE whine
Oh noes, swipe spam can't out tps the prot paladin... we need fixing. Or wait. The lock is not standing inside the crowd, so needs to out-tps us by 30% to pull aggro (he doesn't). He doesn't have do his damage instantly, so we will still be ahead of him, and finally, he has a threatdump (soulshatter) on instant cast.

3500 AP in bear form? Wearing nothing but the Staff of the Plague Beast, from naxx10 you get 3000 AP. This is naked stats i'm talking about.

Absolutely worst case, the lock will have to go for a slightly slower on the seed spam, does that really break our viability?

Armor and jewelry
I think there are a few things we want really.
1. We don't want to be forced into a single upgrade path, the fact that i can filter all non-leather items who doesn't have +armor, without ever considering what they do, is a problem.
2. We don't want to hit the armor cap. Especially not in T7.
3. We would still like to be the "high-armor" tank.

My suggestion:
1. Remove the bear armor modifier from all jewelry slots (neck, rings, trinkets). Let it stay on weapons and cloaks.
2. Adjust bear armor modifier to compensate. Yes, this means it should go up, not down. Goal should be to leave us with ~10% more armor than other tanks, without armor from jewelry.

My suggestion is simple and relatively straightforward to implement (bearform armor modifier already ignores armor bonuses from agility). This means it's viable to become implemented. It does not require changing itemization across the board, and does not affect other classes.

If anyone wants to repost the part about armor and jewelry in the us-beta boards, i'd appreciate it.

I totally agree with you grubsnik, i dont feel like i need to be on par with protpaladins reguarding AOE-threat, as far as i know blizzard said there would still be some difference between the tanks but not to the degree it would be impossible to do encounters without a certain tank (like illidan).

If it requires the dps to focus one target first before unloading their AOE im perfectly fine with it. Unless feraltanks will be less wanted because of aoe-threat being to low i couldnt care less if our swipe isnt on par with other tanks abilities for aoe-threat. If we can get the job done im more than happy with it.
One could argue that swipe is alot better if mobs are suppose to be sheeped since i can just move the group of mobs a couple of yards and continue swipeing, with a paladin you have to wait until consecrate is gone to sheep the mobs.
Or that we can easily run around with our pack of mobs continuing building the same threat with swipe where the paladin have to keep them in one spot for consecrate to work.

As asked above I've made dps/tps reports for different configurations.


The following reports has the following assumptions:

T7.10 level gear (only level 200 and 203 items). A full stacked raid with 10% ap buff working. All the possible consumable, the best in slot enchants, epic gems (matching socket bonuses), all the "minor" buffs like heroism, devotion aura, drums and so on.
The bear simulations doesn't take into account on use items and barkskin.

The simulations relative errors are about 0.25%

Specs:

FULL CAT
FULL BEAR
HYBRID

P.S.
Average swipe damage (from simulated values) in tank gear with naturalist and taking into account misses, dodge, etc. (no blocked value) is 576 so the tps is 795.

I am very grateful, thank you very much. It seems, that the "Hybrid"-Spec with specialised equipment seems to be the way to go, delivering both high DPS and "close to top tanking" abilities. :-)

So, whats your opinion on mangle vs shred spam?

SYL

I think the issue has been misunderstood by many people. The question never really was if mangle could be a feasable substitute for shred at raid situations. My table some pages back clearly states that with RnT shred is still a good deal ahead of mangle.

Mangle spam is more interesting for leveling and at entry level content, especially if you are still wearing 2t6 for the additional bonus.

Ah, thats sad. Well, back to the drawing board then and practicing the new rake-rotation. My fingers are already hurting. :-)

Other data:

with a FULL CAT build:

Mangle spam (using shred only with ooc procs): 4969 dps (-2.3% dps)

without R&T:

with shred: 4702 dps
with mangle spam: 4698 dps

so considering the error (0.25%) mangle spam is equal to shred if you don't have R&T.

So:
regarding the proposed hybrid build at this point it's better this one (2 more point into impMangle and remove Shreding attack).

Report:

CAT with cat gear: 4629 dps.


Bear unlimited rage (with bear gear): 2943 dps, 7072 tps, 294303 tank points.
Bear rage starved (with bear gear): 2137 dps, 4165 tps, 295721 tank points.

Nice and thx for your sims nightcrawler. so for now 2t6 mangle spam with full cat specc is top dps, right? :P
Looks like it has to be nerfed for the future.

Thank you for your extremely fast response!

The figures seem to suggest that the two Hybrid specs are rather close. The TPS in an Infinite Rage situation are almost identical, there is a small lead in a starved situation, and cat quite obviously has a very small DPS drop... but does offer some solo/pvp utility with cheaper shifts and relying less on Shred damage.

Besides the debate with regards to Infected Wounds, which one could always drop iLotp/Brutal Impact for, those numbers convinced me that the hybrid builds will work very well

It doesn't, as I've said I've supposed that they stack because I'm pretty sure It's a bug and it will be fixed before we reach 80.