I'm not sure what this is actually trying to simulate. 5000 AP is way too low at lvl 80, 30% crit is way too low at any level, 2.5% expertise is pretty low no matter what (either with lvl 70 using primal precision and shard of contempt), no haste is a bit wrong given what raid buffs exist (like 10% from windfury), and no tiger's fury is insane - that's missing 60 energy every 30 seconds.

Yup, makes sense. And since Mangle spam won't be an option then, I assume that Rend and Tear gets maxed along with King of the Jungle while only one point goes into Improved Mangle.

Revised selfish level 70 cat

I haven't seen convincing lv70 numbers, but since 2t6 talented mangle is at least competitive at 80, and since 4t6 increases the relative value of mangle spam over shred--increased finisher damage means combo points are more valuable--I suspect 3/5 RnT with 3/3 imp mangle and 3/3 KotJ using mangle spam will outperform shred with 5/5 RnT. You do lose 20% crit on FB, but you will have more FBs since you get over 40% more combo points. Although you're probably using Raven Goddess anyway, idol of terror will handily outperform everbloom idol as well.

edit: I forgot about clearcasting when comparing cp generation. Suppose you get one clearcasting proc every 12s, on which you shred whether primary nuke is mangle or shred. During that time, you get ~144 energy (no 2t4, which complicates things but favors mangle spam, including fraction of KotJ energy), which is 4.97 mangles 3.43 shreds. Add the clearcasting proc and you have 5.97 cp generators with mangle spam or 4.43 cp generators with shred spam. So you really only get ~35% more cps with mangle spam, not 44%.

Also, with mangle spam, you can drop shredding attacks and get some utility like iLotP, Brutal Impact, or Nurturing Instincts.

I really don't understand how these numbers are possible. Shred with RnT and SA has a higher DPE than Mangle with Imp Mangle and 2t6. The gap becomes even larger with better gear. The only reason to switch to Mangle is for faster CP generation. With the glyph and 2t7, Rip lasts 19 seconds (hopefully 20 if they fix the bonus). For a SR/Rip rotation (given above) we'll have plenty of CP to keep both up 100%. With more realistic crit and OoC proc rates I don't see us running short on CP using Shred with an SR/Rip/FB cycle either.

Perhaps the problem is possibly low estimates for crit/OoC and high DR. The lack of Tiger's Fury is pretty large and does this include the 2t7 bonus?

The issue really comes down to just how much dps you are willing to sacrifice to keep a hybrid spec over a specialized one. For high progression min/max guilds the answer is clear. For more casual guilds, losing a hundreds of dps and having weaker tanking utility might be acceptable over swapping in optimized characters.

Right, but CP speed doesn't matter if it's wasted. The question is only whether or not you get enough CP at a time to do your cycle. If you're basing your cycle around a 34-second SR cycle, it's looking increasingly like CP generation isn't really worth it. It might be for a shorter cycle, but I'm a bit skeptical.

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

This is the level 80 spec I am considering so I can can tank or dps well, as the circumstances require, both in 5-mans and raids. I welcome any advice regarding this spec. Specifically, I have a question regarding taking RnT vs NS/MS. It seems that only parts of RnT are useful depending on what you are doing:

20% Maul dmg is useful only if tanking. Does the 4% added dmg from NS/MS equate to more, less, or a similar amount of damage/threat?

The 20% shred dmg is useful only if dpsing in a group or raid. Does the 4% crit from NS/MS equate to more, less, or a similar amount of dps?

The 50% crit chance for FB is only good for soloing or in groups when the mob is nearly dead. It seems to me that the 4% crit from NS/MS would be better in this circumstance. Is that accurate?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out where it is better to spend the 5 talent points. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

I asked this before, but has anyone looked at lower CP FBs? Finding the threshold on where FB is superior to mangle/shred may allow non maxed FBs to still be used which might be able to fit into the cycle. For that matter non-maxed rips might work too if it smoothes things out more (and 5 pt FBs turn out to be superior).

FB is better than a 29 energy Mangle DPE-wise even at 2 CP (that is a lvl80 with 50% crit and FB done at 38 energy).

Thank you, kalbear. With RnT, does Feral Agression become a worthwhile talent? Are there any other recommendations you would make about the spec I posted? I have revised it here with RnT instead of NS/MS:

WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

Feral Aggression appears to be pretty good as a talent if you're using FB; I'm assuming that's also in use. At least for cats; for bears there's just too many other things to get, and it should only be gotten if you don't have imp demo shout in your raid.

With the change to infinite swipes I'd try very hard to get feral instincts into the build if you'll be tanking at all. Having the ability to hold AOE packs is going to be useful in any number of places but especially when you're doing 5-mans. At this point I'd probably ditch IW unless it's a requirement for your raid.

Wait... what ? Have they gone completely mental ? First they state that on Magic AoE encounters Druids mitigate too much damage (the "Here Be Dragons"-type fights) and then they buff the no.1 culprit responsible for that one ?