Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 184

Nitz · 10/06/08, 8:11 AM

Could someone interested by this particular issue post this suggestion in the US Beta forums, I'm not too sure european feedback is relayed to developers.

With a Little Helper from My Friends - Achievement - World of Warcraft

It will be a real hassle for druids, feral ones in particular to complete this achievement without totally relying on their teammates.

One nice suggestion from Vaccine about this problem:

But what should have been implemented is a priority shapeshift system. Have Cat/Travel/Aquatic/Bear/Dire Bear/Tree of Life/Moonkin as priority 1. All other shapeshift buffs as priority 2. If you are under the effect of a priority 1 shapeshift buff (ie: in a form) then thats the one that displays. If no priority 1 shapeshift, you go to any priority 2 shapeshifts. The practical result would be that your shapeshifting effect would show in humanoid form but not in animal forms. So you could shift cat and turn into a cat, unshift and appear as a gnome again (or whatever). That way we don't lose shapeshift effects instantly (recent pirate day is an example, 12 hour buff for all classes except druids, where it disappears on first shift) and would still be classed as under the effect whilst shapeshifted. It also sidesteps any PvP balance issues.

By the way, hai to you Vaccine. :]

nightcrowler · 10/06/08, 9:30 AM

I've tested the rake idea proposed by tangedyn:

The best way is to wait till energy = energy.move+energy.rake-10-lag. For istance with shreding attack

you don't shred at 42 energy but (with 100 ms latency) wait till 42+35-10-1 energy. This way suddendly after the shred you'll have enough energy to rake (or the other way around if rake expire in the mean-time).

This way you gain about 10-20 dps, not too much.

Expecially because there are 2 exception:
1) you don't want to do it if you have more than 3 cps and going to FB otherwise you'll have a big chance to waste extra energy on FB.
2) you don't want to do it with mangle, because having mangle debuff active is better than refreshing rake.

To sum up:

if you are going to shred (and you are not going to use FB):
wait till shred.energy+rake.energy-10-lag instead of shred.energy

this will award a bunch of extra dps (about 10-20 more dps).

As for SR it's better to use it at 2 or 4 cps depending on the cycle instead of refreshing it. with a 4SR/5RIP/5FB cycle you end up with an average cycle time of 30 seconds. doing a 4 cp SR means that (with 50% crit rate) SR last 29 or 34 seconds. The average time without savage roar is only 5% = 1.5 seconds.
If you have bad luck you can be 3-4 seconds without savage roar? Usually when savage roar expire you lose it only on autoattack, if you are bad luck you lose it on the last shred/mangle, no more. But you are not waisting extra energy and gcd to refresh it more often.

Pike · 10/06/08, 9:32 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

That's the problem - it means that non-feral druids will still have as much armour as feral druids (thick hide is pretty easy to get if they want it), which could break PvP. I know they won't get PotP, but it's still an issue in overall balance. Resto / Restokin druids are already amazingly good in PvP, although the changes in Wrath may fix that.

I'll probably get some flak over this, but I'd like to see where the discussion goes anyway.

When I spec feral, I don't have access to Moonkin form or ToL. Why do both of those specs have access to dire bear? Allowing all specs access to the "tanking" form, makes it difficult to balance that form without OP'ing some pvp specs. What if there was some way to tweak the vanilla "bear" form to give those pvp specs some survivability, but make dire bear a 41 pt talent in the feral tree (would have to free up some talent points elsewhere in the tree to squeeze it in)?

unitsinc · 10/06/08, 9:44 AM

Edit: Nevermind. Found it.

Diameter · 10/06/08, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Pike

I'll probably get some flak over this, but I'd like to see where the discussion goes anyway.

When I spec feral, I don't have access to Moonkin form or ToL. Why do both of those specs have access to dire bear? Allowing all specs access to the "tanking" form, makes it difficult to balance that form without OP'ing some pvp specs. What if there was some way to tweak the vanilla "bear" form to give those pvp specs some survivability, but make dire bear a 41 pt talent in the feral tree (would have to free up some talent points elsewhere in the tree to squeeze it in)?

The first problem I see with this, is that unlike any other talent tree (with the possible exception of DK), the feral tree is there to provide support to 2 roles, tanking and melee dps. If you look at the 1 point talents, they provide something for both roles.

The second problem with this suggestion is if you removed Dire Bear Form as a base skill, a non-feral would not be able to tank. This form is accessable to everyone because the ability to tank is something which Blizzard wanted every Druid to be able to do to an extent. Unfortunently, due to our armor restriction of only being able to wear cloth and leather, non-ferals need the 400% armor modifier to be able to match the armor plate wearer's have.

Bazookatooth · 10/06/08, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Pike

I'll probably get some flak over this, but I'd like to see where the discussion goes anyway.

When I spec feral, I don't have access to Moonkin form or ToL. Why do both of those specs have access to dire bear? Allowing all specs access to the "tanking" form, makes it difficult to balance that form without OP'ing some pvp specs. What if there was some way to tweak the vanilla "bear" form to give those pvp specs some survivability, but make dire bear a 41 pt talent in the feral tree (would have to free up some talent points elsewhere in the tree to squeeze it in)?

I think the main reason is because Blizzard has stated multiple times in this beta that they want off-spec tanking classes to still be able to tank 5 mans, even if sub-optimally. An off spec druid may be the farthest 'instance ready' tank of all 4 classes, but an off-spec druid without dire bear form simply cannot tank.

• Caniki · 10/06/08, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Could someone interested by this particular issue post this suggestion in the US Beta forums, I'm not too sure european feedback is relayed to developers.

By the way, hai to you Vaccine. :]

I posted something in the US Beta druid forums. My idea is less complicated - just let us have costumes that persist in forms. It works just fine for the Ashtongue Cowl.

Calen · 10/06/08, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by droeber

I posted something in the US Beta druid forums. My idea is less complicated - just let us have costumes that persist in forms. It works just fine for the Ashtongue Cowl.

The reason it 'works' for the Ashtongue Cowl is that the item is limited to use in TK; there is certainly no technical limitation of having working costumes that remain present across all forms - as Vaccine points out, it's about maintaining PvP balance. According to the ancient (and unfindable) blue posts that preceded the noggenfogger nerf, it is too confusing in world/BG/arena PvP for druids to have their forms identified through mana/rage/energy bars, not visually, and required a general nerf on druids in costumes.

Personally I found the Ashtongue Cowl mildly confusing given all the time that has passed from the good old skeledruid pvping - probably spent half that particular Al'ar fight double checking that I was indeed in the form required. The saddest thing about it was that the feral hitbox has never been as effectively fixed as it was by the humanoid costumes, I could swear it was improved by it while running down spawns for A'lar. Might have been nostalgia I suppose.

It always seemed like a ridiculous argument; "I can't tell what stance a warrior is in, and it can affect my style of attack!?1!" There are any number of spec dependent pvp abilities that can't be determined by looking at an opponent, but I can only presume that somehow druids become enormously more effective and dangerous when disguised.

Some kind of priority system to allow druids to complete quests that include disguises is something that should have been included immediately after the noggenfogger/disguise change, but then (like now) I suspect there are higher priorities for developer time.

Duilliath · 10/06/08, 12:29 PM

Back in the day, people just felt it was a cheap cop out by Blizzard with regards to a fix to the 'Feral Range Bug' when they disabled Noggenfogger and gave that excuse.

The solution really doesn't have to be all that difficult though, and I think the above suggestions go a bit too far.
Simply have costumes apply when in Caster form, and fade when you shift. When you shift back out to Caster form, the costume applies again.

Oiysters · 10/06/08, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Calen

The reason it 'works' for the Ashtongue Cowl is that the item is limited to use in TK; there is certainly no technical limitation of having working costumes that remain present across all forms - as Vaccine points out, it's about maintaining PvP balance. According to the ancient (and unfindable) blue posts that preceded the noggenfogger nerf, it is too confusing in world/BG/arena PvP for druids to have their forms identified through mana/rage/energy bars, not visually, and required a general nerf on druids in costumes.

It always seemed like a ridiculous argument; "I can't tell what stance a warrior is in, and it can affect my style of attack!?1!" There are any number of spec dependent pvp abilities that can't be determined by looking at an opponent, but I can only presume that somehow druids become enormously more effective and dangerous when disguised.

Given the state of feral pvp in TBC, this whole line of reasoning has been proven wrong. The arena statistics speak for themselves, and this very old nerf should be reversed.

Coldturkey · 10/06/08, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by Calen

The reason it 'works' for the Ashtongue Cowl is that the item is limited to use in TK; there is certainly no technical limitation of having working costumes that remain present across all forms - as Vaccine points out, it's about maintaining PvP balance. According to the ancient (and unfindable) blue posts that preceded the noggenfogger nerf, it is too confusing in world/BG/arena PvP for druids to have their forms identified through mana/rage/energy bars, not visually, and required a general nerf on druids in costumes.

Personally I found the Ashtongue Cowl mildly confusing given all the time that has passed from the good old skeledruid pvping - probably spent half that particular Al'ar fight double checking that I was indeed in the form required. The saddest thing about it was that the feral hitbox has never been as effectively fixed as it was by the humanoid costumes, I could swear it was improved by it while running down spawns for A'lar. Might have been nostalgia I suppose.

It always seemed like a ridiculous argument; "I can't tell what stance a warrior is in, and it can affect my style of attack!?1!" There are any number of spec dependent pvp abilities that can't be determined by looking at an opponent, but I can only presume that somehow druids become enormously more effective and dangerous when disguised.

Some kind of priority system to allow druids to complete quests that include disguises is something that should have been included immediately after the noggenfogger/disguise change, but then (like now) I suspect there are higher priorities for developer time.

This seems like a terrible excuse now because its a lot easier to tell what form a druid is in (besides the energy/rage/mana argument) because each form shows up as a buff with a unique icon. Seeing everyone's buff/debuffs wasn't around during the time of the nerf but now its a lot easier to tell what a player has. I can't really figure out why it's so important that we stay in form skins when you think about how other multi-spec classes are identified. If a shaman has 7k mana, you know he's enhancement even without being able to see any armor or weapons. If you see a druid with lotp you know he's feral and the attack animations (and movement speed) will easily identify what form they are in. I personally support the use of deviates in forms and hope they reverse this due to more recent changes in player buffs.

tangedyn · 10/06/08, 2:35 PM

Wowcatsim 0.10.2 released

* New API added: status.getSimTimer()
* Changed default stats to match Toskk's calculator
* Writes combat log to debug.log file
* Added Nightcrowler's prefered strategy (4-SR/5-Rip/5-FB)
* Modified preset strategies for slight DPS increase (wait until 90 energy to Shred / Mangle Spam)
* Some fixes to Rip and Ferocious Bite calculations

@Nightcrowler
I've not added 2xT7 bonus to my simulation yet. I don't quite understand the 3 second extension to Rip though.. since Rip ticks every 2 seconds. Does it give 1 or 2 more ticks?

I've tried your 4-SR/5-Rip/5-FB cycle on my simulator, and it's not giving me results as good as my best preset. Not sure if I've written the cycle code correctly but it seems fine from the combat log. I believe your cycle is probably designed for a particular gear level, my stat settings are probably too low to use your cycle well.

Using my preset that only does SR and Rip, I'm getting some wasted energy, and I suspect the problem will get worse as gear gets better and when I add in Berserk and Tiger's Fury to the simulator, so I'll probably have to look into tweaking a strategy to spend excess energy into FB.

Malazaar · 10/06/08, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

Using my preset that only does SR and Rip, I'm getting some wasted energy, and I suspect the problem will get worse as gear gets better and when I add in Berserk and Tiger's Fury to the simulator, so I'll probably have to look into tweaking a strategy to spend excess energy into FB.

FB isn't really much weaker than Rip is (at higher gear levels it seems actually superior) so i guess it's more important to use your CPs and energy optimal than the choice of your finisher.

As long as Rip is superior it should be used as the primary (damage) finisher but whenever you have full CP and don't need to refresh SR anytime soon, use Rip when it's down and FB if Rip is still active.

You will most likely not get a high Rip uptime this way (as nightcrowler's simulation indicates) but due to the small difference between Rip and FB and better CP/energy usage your total damage might increase.

Also, it might be worth using 4 CP finishers (especially at high crit rates) so you don't waste CP on a crit at 4cp.

Tiger's Fury and Berserk should be used on cooldown, wait for 90 energy before using berserk though. If possible, tiger's fury should be used right before berserk (that way, more yellow hits get the TF benefit). Also, short term damage buffs, like trinkets, should be used in that timespan.

Khruschev · 10/06/08, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Calen

The saddest thing about it was that the feral hitbox has never been as effectively fixed as it was by the humanoid costumes.

I can't say that it completely fixed the problem, but having a humanoid costume definitely helped with feral hitbox issues.

I hope when Blizzard finally gets around to giving us updated and alternative graphics for our forms, they'll include some more anthropomorphic options-- like a Worgen or "werecat" (think Halazzi) graphic. I'm tired of the feral hitbox problem and of looking like a level 5 trash mob; Blizzard could fix both issues at once.

tlbj6142 · 10/06/08, 3:23 PM

I thought Blizzard has recently (for 3.0) changed the targeting mechanics such that the "hit box issue", is no longer an issue. I haven't played much PvP on the PTR, so I can't tell if it has been fixed. There was a blue post on it months ago.

Here's the post.