Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 187

Nadir_Eonar · 10/07/08, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

I understand that dodge rating is no longer strictly inferior to agility, in that you get a greater increase to your chance to dodge from dodge rating than you do from agility (which, frankly, seems the way it should be). However, if I am reading the Combat Ratings thread correctly, the difference in the DR:dodge and agi:dodge ratios is fairly small, less than 10%. Given that agility still has the triple benefit (dodge, crit, armor), I assume that means that bears will still prefer agility over dodge rating; correct?

I'd wondered about this, and about the potential for using dodge gems, but I came to the same conclusion you did; agility still works out better overall due to the threat/rage buff (and to a lesser extent the armor benefit) from agility. And when you factor in BoK, and the occasional need to DPS even as a tank specced bear, the case for agility gets even stronger.

Originally Posted by Vand1

Has there been any change to the gearing priorities for bears (other than no longer needing defense/resilience)?

Nothing major that I can see. Possibly diminishing returns on avoidance will mean that after a certain point agility will become clearly worse than more stamina, but in general it seems to still be Armor above all, then a mix of agility and stamina, with threat stats coming naturally without needing to gem/enchant for them (even more so than in TBC). Expertise is clearly going to be easier to get since it seems to be loaded on our tier gear. Not sure about hit, but by all accounts it sounds unlikely that we are going to need to worry about gemming for threat.

Vand1 · 10/07/08, 2:25 PM

I had not even taken stat increases from talents and raid buffs into consideration (and I do not think the Combat Ratings thread does, either). Between SotF and BoK, it seems that agility is still strictly superior to dodge rating. Or am I doing some math wrong?

Nadir_Eonar · 10/07/08, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vand1

Or am I doing some math wrong?

If you are I can't see where. As far as I'm concerned dodge rating is still just something i'm happy to see on tank accessories/weaps/cloaks (I don't think that there is going to be much if any agility on these categories of tank gear, beacuse agility is junk for other tanks, but they all use dodge) but not something to gem or enchant for.

Shame really, it would actually make sense to me if there was some benefit to gemming bear gear for dodge as opposed to agility (it would be in line with Blizz's current 'specialisation' theme) but I don't see it happening.

angi · 10/07/08, 2:38 PM

The question is whether agi gems still are the best gems to socket for dmg. If thats not the case i can only think of gemming towards stamina for tanking and armor pen/strength for dmg. Gemming towards dodge is in my eyes not good because of the diminishing returns. Threat is in the current state of the beta no problem as bear so gemming agi as tank has not the benefits it used to be in tbc.

But its fight dependend, so if there are fights that require your group to have a minimal amount of healers (like muru) gemming dodge is perhaps not a bad idea. But these are rare cases so having a dodge-equip is perhaps not the baddest idea, but it is in my eyes not the strategie to prefer for all encounters.

Astrylian · 10/07/08, 2:44 PM

The shift in value of agi vs stam at 70 at sunwell level is large enough that I'm currently seeing [Solid Azure Moonstone] as better than [Delicate Crimson Spinel].

EDIT: I'm not saying go socket all your gear with 18stam gems right now in preparation... Rawr isn't done yet, and I haven't calculated everything perfectly yet, those are just ballpark numbers. But buying a bunch of [Empyrean Sapphire]s with your spare badges instead of [Crimson Spinel]s would probably be a good idea.

tangedyn · 10/07/08, 3:19 PM

I've released version 0.11.0 of the DPS Calculator, a Release Candidate, almost ready for a 1.0 release.

Originally Posted by manapaws

Just wanted to post some feedback on the java wowcatsim that was previously linked. I used my real ingame (on beta) unbuffed stats. I'm in 3pc t7 and random offset pieces from naxx. The amount/level of gems/enchants however is quite poor since there are no ppl levelling professions on beta. No metagem either

My stats are (with 2/2 imp gift of the wild on):
Tauren (if it makes any difference)
5941 AP
42.98% crit
182 hit (Char pane shows 5.55% for lvl80 - is this what the sim uses? converts to boss level? perhaps better to allow rating instead)
Armor Pen 5.07% (Didn't see a place to input this)
Expertise Rating 131, Expertise 15, -3.75% dodge/parry, assume the latter is what the sim wants.
31 haste rating (0.95% haste - assume 0.95 is the input here, which brings speed to .99)

My spec on beta is currently (it changes alot) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft to try to be a good tank but be able to dps as well.

Feedback:
1) Firstly, you have Predatory instincts as a 5 point talent, it's now a 3 pointer (Increase crit dmg by 3/7/10%)
2) With 4 SR + 5 Rip + 5 Bite strategy achieved 2039 dps 7.13sd 0.17err
3) With the maintain roar/rake/mangle use shred/rip strategy achieved 2193 dps 6.94sd, 0.69err
4) Both of the above seem pretty good considering I'm just self buffed. +10% AP will be quite common in group (Enh Shaman, MM Hunter, DK can all provide), doesn't include trinket procs/uses either.

One thing I really want to get clarification on, as I'm not mathematically minded whatsoever, is Rip combo points. Many times over the past page or 2 people have been mentioned 5 pt rips. I'd really like to know if they actually mean 5 point ones, or just 4+ ones. At what amount of crit% is the balancing point of being worthwhile to shred again while at 4 points or not? Ie, chance of wasting a combo point vs dps otherwise. Let me know if this doesn't make sense :p

Also, currently, if we have +AP trinkets we pop them just as applying Rip to the boss. Will this still be the case?

The Predatory Instinct talent has been updated in the latest release, thanks for the report.
I'd like to reiterate that the simulator wasn't really written to predict how much DPS you should expect to be doing. My primary intention for the simulator is so that we can determine the best cycle/rotation/strategy to use our available cat skills to maximize our DPS.

I have not test high levels of crit, but generally doing less than 5 CPs will be a nett DPS loss.
If you wish, you can easily tweak the strategies to Rip at less than 5 CPs.

Look for this line in the strategy:

    if (status.getComboPoints() >= 5) {
        if (status.getRipTimer() == 0 && (status.getEnergy() >= 30 || status.isOocUp()))
            return Action.RIP;
        else
            return Action.NONE;
    }

change the 5 in the first line to whatever minimum amount of CPs you would like to rip with.

david0925 · 10/07/08, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

The shift in value of agi vs stam at 70 at sunwell level is large enough that I'm currently seeing [Solid Azure Moonstone] as better than [Delicate Crimson Spinel].

EDIT: I'm not saying go socket all your gear with 18stam gems right now in preparation... Rawr isn't done yet, and I haven't calculated everything perfectly yet, those are just ballpark numbers. But buying a bunch of [Empyrean Sapphire]s with your spare badges instead of [Crimson Spinel]s would probably be a good idea.

Have you considered the fact that Sunwell Radiance is being removed, making avoidance even better? At 70 agility probably isn't the best stat anymore, but dodge gems should still outperform stamina gems, intuitively speaking

edit: in my opinion Agility -should- be the best stat for a bear in terms of avoidance just because we share loot with Rogues and will not get dodge/parry/defense from leather gear. They can make our agility scale as good as dodge rating for plate tanking classes but the fact is that agility should be our primary avoidance stat.

I don't even think agility is the best cat stat anymore, (I think it was Expertise > hit > Str > Crit= agi or something like that? Someone remind me please), so it's not like we'll do top cat dps in the same gear/gem/enchant just by form swapping.

double edit: comparing 20 agility and 20 dodge rating at level 80.

20 agility, after raid buffs, is 20 x 1.1 (kings) x 1.06 (SoTF) x 0.024 = 0.56% dodge
20 dodge rating = 20 / 39.35 = 0.51%

Numbers for agi/dodge and rating are from
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

So in conclusion, after kings, Agi > dodge for avoidance, and are pretty much the same before kings. Some rounding is used but should not make a big difference.

Janraea · 10/07/08, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

Have you considered the fact that Sunwell Radiance is being removed, making avoidance even better? At 70 agility probably isn't the best stat anymore, but dodge gems should still outperform stamina gems, intuitively speaking

edit: in my opinion Agility -should- be the best stat for a bear in terms of avoidance just because we share loot with Rogues and will not get dodge/parry/defense from leather gear. They can make our agility scale as good as dodge rating for plate tanking classes but the fact is that agility should be our primary avoidance stat.

Avoidance took a big hit for bears because of the diminishing returns, more than making up for the removal of sunwell radiance.

Maeltne · 10/07/08, 4:51 PM

Someone showed in this thread that Agility scaled as well for us a Defense does for Warriors. Last I checked Warriors didn't enchant/gem for Defense beyond what was needed for to not be crit.

We have no such requirement and, I suspect, the closest we well get to actively gemming for agility will be in yellow/red sockets with green/purple gems combined with stamina when socket bonuses are worthwhile.

Even then we may prefer dodge, expertise, or hit.

david0925 · 10/07/08, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by Maeltne

Someone showed in this thread that Agility scaled as well for us a Defense does for Warriors. Last I checked Warriors didn't enchant/gem for Defense beyond what was needed for to not be crit.

We have no such requirement and, I suspect, the closest we well get to actively gemming for agility will be in yellow/red sockets with green/purple gems combined with stamina when socket bonuses are worthwhile.

Even then we may prefer dodge, expertise, or hit.

even for a warrior, defense isn't better than dodge for avoidance, although when a warrior stack dodge or parry too much defense can become closer due to diminishing returns

Personally speaking, as the way the ratings are set up right now, I'll be stacking agility in my tanking set, and expertise/hit in my dps gear, which I will also use as my threat set.

angi · 10/07/08, 5:17 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

Have you considered the fact that Sunwell Radiance is being removed, making avoidance even better? At 70 agility probably isn't the best stat anymore, but dodge gems should still outperform stamina gems, intuitively speaking

edit: in my opinion Agility -should- be the best stat for a bear in terms of avoidance just because we share loot with Rogues and will not get dodge/parry/defense from leather gear. They can make our agility scale as good as dodge rating for plate tanking classes but the fact is that agility should be our primary avoidance stat.

I don't even think agility is the best cat stat anymore, (I think it was Expertise > hit > Str > Crit= agi or something like that? Someone remind me please), so it's not like we'll do top cat dps in the same gear/gem/enchant just by form swapping.

double edit: comparing 20 agility and 20 dodge rating at level 80.

20 agility, after raid buffs, is 20 x 1.1 (kings) x 1.06 (SoTF) x 0.024 = 0.56% dodge
20 dodge rating = 20 / 39.35 = 0.51%

Numbers for agi/dodge and rating are from
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/

So in conclusion, after kings, Agi > dodge for avoidance, and are pretty much the same before kings. Some rounding is used but should not make a big difference.

You gain much less dodge from agi as today, so if you gem your whole equip with agi gems you gain approx 13x10agi=130agi=~3,6% dodge. Gemming stamina gives you 13x15=195 stamina=around 3k life. For me this is a clear decision towards gemming stamina. With level 80 gems this is 7,2% dodge vs. 6k life, but in the beginning our avoidance will suck with around 30-35% so 6k life will be clearly better. Perhaps if the gear gets better and we are at an bt/hyjal level gemming agi becomes better, because overall avoidance is better. But in the start at lvl 80 gemming stamina as tank will be the route to go.

david0925 · 10/07/08, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by angi

You gain much less dodge from agi as today, so if you gem your whole equip with agi gems you gain approx 13x10agi=130agi=~3,6% dodge. Gemming stamina gives you 13x15=195 stamina=around 3k life. For me this is a clear decision towards gemming stamina. With level 80 gems this is 7,2% dodge vs. 6k life, but in the beginning our avoidance will suck with around 30-35% so 6k life will be clearly better. Perhaps if the gear gets better and we are at an bt/hyjal level gemming agi becomes better, because overall avoidance is better. But in the start at lvl 80 gemming stamina as tank will be the route to go.

13 X 10 dodge rating= 130 dodge rating= 6.87% dodge, suddenly the gap between your choice between avoidance and hp just got closer. I'm not arguing for agility at all at level 70 since it's no longer a winner, but at 80 it passes dodge rating point for point for avoidance, and that's all I am stating.

To me stamina is near-worthless past a certain point for survival (I use 21k for Brutallus), and mitigation and avoidance is much more important to me. In addition, although we lose dodge from agility, we gain 5% base dodge (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), 6% from NR (talent), and the removal of Sunwell Radiance is worth 25% avoidance. So strictly speaking in sunwell, unless we lose more than 36% dodge in regular tanking gear in sunwell, stacking avoidance will still net better results than stacking stamina. Now I cannot say for sure for my M'uru avoidance tanking gear, but I definitely won't lose 36% dodge in my standard tanking gear come 3.0.

Malazaar · 10/07/08, 5:46 PM

Originally Posted by david0925

but at 80 it passes dodge rating point for point for avoidance, and that's all I am stating.

Dodge rating passes agility at every level in terms of avoidance per point. The relation always remains the same, regardless of level.

Duilliath · 10/07/08, 5:48 PM

Apparently M'uru would be different anyway, since the adds don't suffer(/enjoy) the aura, so there the hit to your avoidance will be much larger.

I do agree with you about the avoidance vs stamina though. At some point, stacking stamina just doesn't bring anything more. You want to survive a worst case scenario and once that's done, the next level to hit would be one more boss attack, which tends to be a wee bit more than you could gain from socketing additional stamina. It remains to be seen what exactly that perfect stamina level is, but with the reported health lead bears have, we may not even need to focus on stamina all that much.

Astrylian · 10/07/08, 6:06 PM

Good point about Sunwell Radiance. Regardless, in my heavily avoidance-stacked, 15sta's still beat 10agi's.

One other thing to note... Defense CAN surpass Dodge/Agi in total avoidance gain, due to how the DR works. DR for Dodge and DR for Miss are calculated separately. If you already have a very high dodge, such that you're losing alot to DR, adding a def gem CAN provide more avoidance due to miss being almost unaffected by DR.

Again, these are pre-alpha calculations, not guaranteed to be correct in any way yet.