Elitist Jerks Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion

 10/07/08, 6:17 PM #2806 ranma Von Kaiser   RANMA Night Elf Druid   Crushridge It looks like on Beta, SR and other +%AP buff don't stack with each other. So, it is still a myth to say what blizzard will address this problem. 1. Make it intended, it doesn't stack. 2. Make it stack, but nerf SR accordingly, make the overall effect doesn't change after stack. 3. Make it stack, and it is 140% * 110% 4. Make it stack, and it is 140% + 110%
10/07/08, 6:30 PM   #2807
david0925
Don Flamenco

Night Elf Druid

Proudmoore
 Originally Posted by Malazaar Dodge rating passes agility at every level in terms of avoidance per point. The relation always remains the same, regardless of level.
If that's the case, please look at math and numbers
http://elitistjerks.com/926149-post2797.html

and see what's wrong with it. Thanks a lot

10/07/08, 6:55 PM   #2808
Malazaar
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Gul'dan (EU)
 Originally Posted by david0925 If that's the case, please look at math and numbers http://elitistjerks.com/926149-post2797.html and see what's wrong with it. Thanks a lot
There is nothing wrong with it at all, maybe you misunderstood me.
I was merely stating that since the relation always the same regardless of level so you don't have to do the math again for level 80, as the result is the same to level 70.

If 1 agi > 1 dodgerating after kings at level 80, the same will apply at level 70.

 10/07/08, 8:08 PM #2809 ranma Von Kaiser   RANMA Night Elf Druid   Crushridge Let me do the math about end-game damage reduction. Formulas and numbers are from here http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-c...gs_level_80_a/ +25 defense skills = 1% miss/dodge/parry +250 defense skills = 10% miss/dodge/parry = 30% pure damage avoidance before diminish returns for war/pal/dk. You need 1229.62450975 defense ratings at level 80, because 4.918498039 defense rating = 1 defense skill. For same item value points of the defense rating, druids get 1229.62450975 agility. After blessing of the kings, it is 1352.586960725 agi. Which equals 32.4620870548% dodges for druid, since 41.6666667 agi = 1% dodge at level 80. Let's assume that miss rate shares same DR formula as dodge, although it might be a little better than dodge, if a boss has overpower ability or tank need to turn its back to the boss for some reasons. War/Pal/DK has x'(miss/dodge) = cx/(kc + x) = 88.129021*10 /( 88.129021*0.9560 + 10) = 9.350425913177 x'(parry) = cx/(kc + x) = 47.003525*10 /( 47.003525*0.9560 + 10) = 8.5561497238594 Total Avoidance after DR x' = 9.350425913177 * 2 + 8.5561497238594 = 27.25700155 Druid has x'(dodge) = cx/(kc + x) = 116.890707*32.4620870548 /( 116.890707*0.9720 + 32.4620870548) = 9.350425913177 = 25.9756304 Almost 1.28% avoidance short from 30%ish avoidance.a Edit for my math if not wrong, druid need 5kish agi, and from that point, defense rating is better than agi in term of avoidance for druids. Last edited by ranma : 10/07/08 at 8:15 PM. Reason: add more content
10/07/08, 10:37 PM   #2810
Mijae
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by ranma Let me do the math about end-game damage reduction. +25 defense skills = 1% miss/dodge/parry +250 defense skills = 10% miss/dodge/parry = 30% pure damage avoidance before diminish returns for war/pal/dk. You need 1229.62450975 defense ratings at level 80, because 4.918498039 defense rating = 1 defense skill. For same item value points of the defense rating, druids get 1229.62450975 agility. After blessing of the kings, it is 1352.586960725 agi. Which equals 32.4620870548% dodges for druid, since 41.6666667 agi = 1% dodge at level 80. Let's assume that miss rate shares same DR formula as dodge, although it might be a little better than dodge, if a boss has overpower ability or tank need to turn its back to the boss for some reasons. War/Pal/DK has x'(miss/dodge) = cx/(kc + x) = 88.129021*10 /( 88.129021*0.9560 + 10) = 9.350425913177 x'(parry) = cx/(kc + x) = 47.003525*10 /( 47.003525*0.9560 + 10) = 8.5561497238594 Total Avoidance after DR x' = 9.350425913177 * 2 + 8.5561497238594 = 27.25700155 Druid has x'(dodge) = cx/(kc + x) = 116.890707*32.4620870548 /( 116.890707*0.9720 + 32.4620870548) = 9.350425913177 = 25.9756304 Almost 1.28% avoidance short from 30%ish avoidance.a Edit for my math if not wrong, druid need 5kish agi, and from that point, defense rating is better than agi in term of avoidance for druids.
The numbers are a bit skewed since you're comparing defense and agility separately when it shares the same diminishing returns on dodge.

The break-even point is actually closer to 3.5k agility. You'll have about 81% dodge pre-DR and around 49% after DR (from agility only). The DRs start affecting dodge so much that the miss gain from defense increases avoidance more. However, agility will still be more valuable far past that point for the dps value.

 10/07/08, 10:50 PM #2811 Astrylian Rawr     Celestrylian Night Elf Monk   Stormrage Aye, I just noticed it happen when I activated avoidance trinkets. Rawr!
10/08/08, 1:10 AM   #2812
ranma
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Crushridge
 Originally Posted by Mijae The numbers are a bit skewed since you're comparing defense and agility separately when it shares the same diminishing returns on dodge. The break-even point is actually closer to 3.5k agility. You'll have about 81% dodge pre-DR and around 49% after DR (from agility only). The DRs start affecting dodge so much that the miss gain from defense increases avoidance more. However, agility will still be more valuable far past that point for the dps value.
First, the math here is not to find break-even point for defense and agility. I didn't write math for break-even part yet. I was comparing if what happened if warriors stack defense rating and druids stack agi. My math showed that druid might be lack of avoidance at very end-game, although we need real numbers of T9 to have an exact idea if druids are underpower or not.

Second, I gave coarse math for break even point. From above math, you can see agility give roughly same benefit for druids as defense rating to warriors. that's for same item value points, 1% miss/dodge/parry from defense rating ~= 3% dodges from agi, pre-DR. For druids only, defense rating gives druid 1% miss and 1% dodge when agi gives 3% dodge. Because defense and agi share DR on dodge part, we can see, when we stack enough dodge, at one moment, additional agi gives x=3%, x'=1.5% as dodge, for same item points, defense would give druid 1% miss(not DR), 0.5% dodge(same 50% penalty on DR on dodge). That's the break even point. When will you have 50% penalty on dodge?

x' = cx/(ck + x), when x= 120.1636468, x' = 60.0818234, you got half gain from pre-DR value.

to have 120.1636468% dodge, you need 5006.8186 agi. it might be lower if you have kings+SotF, which is 4294.01254 agi.

Either way, I think it is big enough for us to consider defense rating until maybe T12.

 10/08/08, 2:22 AM #2813 Druidas Glass Joe   Druidas Tauren Druid   Skullcrusher (EU) I'm thinking about the practical side of gemming items. I will be mainly tanking in heroics and 10man group and I think OT/dps in 25man raids later. I have used Toskk cat dps calculator and with my planned talent build and possible T7.10 level gear the value of str. gem is 37, agi gem 31, armor penetration, hit and expertise gems about 21-23 kitty points. I'm thinking about gemming items in such way: if I use item only for tanking, I socket stamina gems, for only dps items I socket str., for items used both for tanking and dps, I will socket agility. Or is it worth to socket dps gear with exp/hit gems if I'm not hit/exp capped? And sorry for my bad English
10/08/08, 3:13 AM   #2814
Mijae
Don Flamenco

Tauren Druid

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by ranma First, the math here is not to find break-even point for defense and agility. I didn't write math for break-even part yet. I was comparing if what happened if warriors stack defense rating and druids stack agi. My math showed that druid might be lack of avoidance at very end-game, although we need real numbers of T9 to have an exact idea if druids are underpower or not. Second, I gave coarse math for break even point. From above math, you can see agility give roughly same benefit for druids as defense rating to warriors. that's for same item value points, 1% miss/dodge/parry from defense rating ~= 3% dodges from agi, pre-DR. For druids only, defense rating gives druid 1% miss and 1% dodge when agi gives 3% dodge. Because defense and agi share DR on dodge part, we can see, when we stack enough dodge, at one moment, additional agi gives x=3%, x'=1.5% as dodge, for same item points, defense would give druid 1% miss(not DR), 0.5% dodge(same 50% penalty on DR on dodge). That's the break even point. When will you have 50% penalty on dodge? x' = cx/(ck + x), when x= 120.1636468, x' = 60.0818234, you got half gain from pre-DR value. to have 120.1636468% dodge, you need 5006.8186 agi. it might be lower if you have kings+SotF, which is 4294.01254 agi. Either way, I think it is big enough for us to consider defense rating until maybe T12.
IMO it's never a good idea to evaluate stats outside the context of the entire system. I simply took my spreadsheet with full epic tank gear and tried inflating agility to 5000. I then evaluated the updated stats for Mitigation and it showed defense much more valuable. If I reduce dodge rating and defense down to zero and increase agility to around 3300, defense and agility are roughly equal in Mitigation value. However, this is also slightly skewed as we won't have only agility on our gear anyway.

When considering non-DR avoidance, more weight is placed on increasing miss than when just viewing the increase from gear on the two stats alone. The comparison really needs to be taken in relation to total avoidance and damage reduction. I haven't done the full math, just some trial and error stats. Regardless, I don't see us hitting this much agility in WotLK either so it's probably not worth the time getting exact values.

Edit: To clarify, my point is that you cannot judge the value of defense based on a comparison to agility alone.

Last edited by Mijae : 10/08/08 at 3:37 AM. Reason: Clarification

10/08/08, 3:50 AM   #2815
angi
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Kil'Jaeden (EU)
 Originally Posted by Druidas I'm thinking about the practical side of gemming items. I will be mainly tanking in heroics and 10man group and I think OT/dps in 25man raids later. I have used Toskk cat dps calculator and with my planned talent build and possible T7.10 level gear the value of str. gem is 37, agi gem 31, armor penetration, hit and expertise gems about 21-23 kitty points. I'm thinking about gemming items in such way: if I use item only for tanking, I socket stamina gems, for only dps items I socket str., for items used both for tanking and dps, I will socket agility. Or is it worth to socket dps gear with exp/hit gems if I'm not hit/exp capped? And sorry for my bad English
I don`t have access atm to an calculator, but just from my mind the value of +hit and +exp affects white dmg the most because we get energy back in case of a failed yellow attack. If i remember correctly there was also a blue statement about shred (in general they where speaking about attacks that require you to attack from behind) not being able to be dodged in wotlk. So the value of hit and exp for dmg can not be that great. For threat in bear these two are for sure the best values you can get.

The question i have is if its not better to gem all gems with armor pen in the dmg gear, because it still gets better the more you have.

 10/08/08, 3:54 AM #2816 nightcrowler Don Flamenco     nightcrowler Night Elf Druid   Runetotem (EU) EDIT: fixed an error with FB Regarding the discussion with Tang about the best cycle, I've tested his ideas and... well we both have partial right. I'll explain myself: basically I used a 4SR/2 x finisher cycle, but Tang said that it's better to free up savage roar doing it when expire and use always RIP, well we were both wrong. At least at the gear level I'm testing (full t7.10, full heroic gear, full epic gems, full raid buffed, enchanted, food, scrolls and glyphs) it seams that the best results are with a free SR cycle and free Finisher cycle doing the finishers at 5 CP and doing SR at 4 (but it's really marginal) Basically this is the cycle (prioritized): 1) keep SR always up (do it if you have 4 or 5 cps or simply do it, it's basically the same) 2) keep mangle always up 3) keep rake always up 4) use shred at energy = shred+rake-10-lag 5) if you have 5 cps use your finisher (RIP or FB) depending on RIP ticks left, buff-debuff, spec and energy. 2SR/5RIP cycle: DPS: 4853 Free-SR/5RIP cycle: DPS: 4838 4SR/2 x 5cp finisher cycle: DPS: 5075 Free-SR/choce finisher cycle: DPS: 4991 Half-Free-SR (wait 4 cp) /choce finisher cycle: DPS: 4995 The cycle is pretty complex: basically we need to watch and refresh 3 debuffs (SR, Mangle, Rake), watch for other debuff (like trauma and bleeds), watch at RIP ticking and energy to choce between rip and FB, watch at our energy to makimize the usage of Tiger's Fury. Last edited by nightcrowler : 10/09/08 at 3:53 AM. Reason: fixed an error with FB
10/08/08, 4:23 AM   #2817
Selmarix
Piston Honda

Dwarf Hunter

Turalyon (EU)
 Originally Posted by Mijae IMO it's never a good idea to evaluate stats outside the context of the entire system. I simply took my spreadsheet with full epic tank gear and tried inflating agility to 5000. I then evaluated the updated stats for Mitigation and it showed defense much more valuable. If I reduce dodge rating and defense down to zero and increase agility to around 3300, defense and agility are roughly equal in Mitigation value. However, this is also slightly skewed as we won't have only agility on our gear anyway. When considering non-DR avoidance, more weight is placed on increasing miss than when just viewing the increase from gear on the two stats alone. The comparison really needs to be taken in relation to total avoidance and damage reduction. I haven't done the full math, just some trial and error stats. Regardless, I don't see us hitting this much agility in WotLK either so it's probably not worth the time getting exact values. Edit: To clarify, my point is that you cannot judge the value of defense based on a comparison to agility alone.
His mistake was that he took the value where the entire amount of dodge was diminished to half. At that point additional dodge is diminished to far below half. So the amount of dodge for which additional dodge is diminished to half is considerably lower.

But we can't really compare dodge and defense (=dodge + miss) until we know the cap value for miss. My guess is that miss cap will be lower than the dodge cap.

A warrior who wants to stack avoidance will also use items with defense, dodge and parry on the same item instead of only defense (the itemization formula favors that).

10/08/08, 4:33 AM   #2818
spartakos
Piston Honda

Tauren Druid

Genjuros (EU)
 Originally Posted by nightcrowler The cycle is pretty complex: basically we need to watch and refresh 3 debuffs (SR, Mangle, Rake), watch for other debuff (like trauma and bleeds), watch at RIP ticking and energy to choce between rip and FB, watch at our energy to maximize the usage of Tiger's Fury.
Also there is the OoC free energy procs. This is really too much.

 10/08/08, 6:17 AM #2819 Dyvozvir Glass Joe   Dyvozvir Tauren Druid   Turalyon (EU) Oh yes, you can add 2 trinkets with separate CD, haste potion, drums and finaly berserk. Keep in mind FFF for debufing. It seems that powershifting wasnt the hardest way to dps. Definately, this should be tested by every druid... but I dont like the idea to watch more than 7-10 things for single target dpsing.
 10/08/08, 9:49 AM #2820 Nilaus Von Kaiser     Lamarus Draenei Hunter   Dragonmaw (EU) I realize that this is a very non-EJ attitude, but here goes. Considering the massive amount of buffs/debuffs/durations/cooldowns and energy levels that we need to keep track of when DPSing as cat: what is the trade off by just using FB instead of Rip? It has been calculated some pages back and as I read it the difference wasn't very big. I am wondering if the DPS lost from trying (and failing) to manage the optimal rotation is larger than settling with a less complicated rotation: Keep SR up and then FB? Personally, I'd love to get rid of Rip from my rotation and just rely on Rake for the bleed. The great thing would be that an infinitely complicated rotation really seperates the wheat from the chaff.

 Elitist Jerks Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion