Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 198

Yilfin · 10/11/08, 9:25 PM

You've not understood my statement. When i say 90%, i'm not talking about mitigation/avoidance/threat numbers for tanking, and dps numbers for dps, i'm well aware that we are good in these areas by reading this topic, the us beta forum and wotlkwiki and by playing in the beta. There is a real world, that a lot of druids fails to understand, between being viable (be able to perform the same role as the others in encounters, not be far away from the others in numbers in a wow web stats report) and be fun to play, active, entertaining, efficient in specific tasks. I'll not make again a comparative lists of the skills available to all the tanks (yes, it's a video game, so the essence of it is how you interact with what is showed to you), but if i choose to be a bear tank, there is at least 2x less buttons to push compare to a warrior. But we were ok with that before, because the whole goal of feral, as stated in the official website, the games manuals, and the pasts dev’s declarations, was to make an hybrid melee fighter that can mimic two class, warriors and rogues, and to be able to perform but in a "wannabee" approach these two roles on the fly, with just a gear switch. The drawbacks of this design were that we had far less skills to activate than the specialists when we assume a role (because our skills are spread-out between two forms), we were less efficient than them in their specific tasks and we had 90% of our skills being just copy-pasted versions of their parent-classes. We paid our lack of specialization in one of the two role that we can take, because of the intended and built in the design of our spec versatility. Now this versatility will be given to all if the dual-spec switching have not big constraints and even if a bear spec will be maybe 100% of what a warrior tank will be on the paper, it’s just on the paper, or in a wws report, or in the results of calculations of theorycrafters, how can you compare a tank that have 60+ talents points dedicated to tanking, and another than have 3 or maybe 4x less talents truly dedicated to that, and others talents being hybrids ? It's in game, in the beta, if you want to tank, the new improved warrior gameplay, the deathknight, and a bit less paladins, have more tools than us, are more active to play than us, are more fun to play in their specific role than us (and on top of that are more cool-looking than our level 10 animals models but it's another problem) because we are suffering from the hybridization of the feral tree, a tree of an already hybrid class (druids), so we are two times hybrids.

That's the point that i wanted to share with you, my feelings. I prefer when i want to tank, to have a full tree dedicated to tanking, with skills specifics to my class, and i prefer when i want to dps, to change easily my spec and have a full tree dedicated to that, on the contrary to have a unique tree with all these elements melted in it that reflects many years old conceptions that are not suited to wotlk and to this idea of easy spec-switching. If they want us to specialize, i'm ok with that, but they don't finished the job, our tree could have been filled with more than 80 talents, with a line that separate nearly as many tanking talents - that will give me feral specific and fun new skills to activate - as the tank tree of the specialists have, and the same for dps, and then, i'll be able to switch spec between these two clear tree in the feral tree. And it's not the case now.

But well, all i can do is to wait for more informations on this dual-spec switching feature, but the first details* made me fear and i wanted to share that with you and see if others ferals are feeling the same thing

*Quoted from mmo-champion:

Raids & Dungeons - The Dual-Talent spec feature will let you switch between your two specs without having to go back to town. You can perfectly do it between fights in a raid, however it won't be possible to switch specs in the middle of an Arena Match. Your keybinds and glyphs will be saved and automatically switched as you change your spec.

Macevaland · 10/11/08, 9:32 PM

Want to be completely Hybrid?
Spec Hybrid feral and Hybrid Restokin. I don't think that any warrior would be able to heal, or that any paladin will be able to turn to a caster. The hybrid feral spec that nightcrawler posted looks really good. Want to be just like a warrior? then spec Cat feral and Bear feral. We are still by far more flexible then all other classes. If we get that dual spec thing, we will be the only class that will be able to switch between the 4 main roles that this game has.

Krag · 10/11/08, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Yilfin

... concerns about less abilities to use ...

That is a fair concern, but, I think, also a very subjective one. I personally don't mind that I don't have as many skills to work into rotations, I have a warrior twink that I have used to tank with occasionally but I get way more stressed playing him than tanking on my druid.

As I see it we will still be by far the better hybrid tank in the span of an encounter due to talent and gear overlapping far more than other for other tanks, which if what I think of when I talk about hybrid play (not the ability to respec between encounters and play a single role on each).

Valerian · 10/12/08, 12:21 AM

The concern about warriors, DKs, and Pallies being able to shift spec really has nothing to do with the new dual spec system. The same concern will be present at launch except you'll need to pay a respec cost.

The fact that druids will be using nearly the same gear, at least in some slots, for tanking and dps is a fairly large advantage compared with the rest who need to gem/equip to be crit immune.

loos · 10/12/08, 12:22 AM

I think the dual-spec thing is the reverse of what some of the pure dps classes were worried about. When Blizzard said kitties will have rogue level dps, pure dps-ers asked 'why should we roll anything but a druid since they can change roles?' Now the shoe is on the other foot. Druids are making comments such 'why should I roll a druid when warriors can now be 100% tank on one fight and 100% dps on the next?'. I think both comments lead to the same answer, which class do you prefer to play?

I like the idea that Blizzard is making everyone's class more fun to play. Feral druids have always known it's fun to do more than one thing. Now other classes will get the same opportunity.

If you want to dps & tank, but like the warrior buttons better, then roll a warrior. If you like ranged dps and healing but are worried that priests are cooler, roll a priest. Although, I personally like the idea of being a quad-hybrid class

Garanthir · 10/12/08, 1:34 AM

I think it's an important point to make that dual specs allow Hybrids *more* flexibility and does not take away from raid/group versatility/desirability. Druids can spec full healing, caster DPS, melee DPS, and tanking along with all sorts of talent tree combinations. That flexibility is HUGE and I would think, if anything, increases desirability for raids/grouping.

In addition it really goes along with the bring the player not the class mantra.

nightcrowler · 10/12/08, 2:14 AM

@Tangedyn

- Berserk is a big dps boost and highly increase the value of FB.
- Those stats are low also for a just dinged 80, my raidbuffed ap at 70 is higher^^.
- 30% damage reduction is too high, damage reduction is 26-27% for an high armor boss and 19% for a low armor boss.

At the moment the best strategy we've found (between Dimpled, Nord and myself) goes:

1. If Tiger's Fury cooldown is up, cast Tiger's Fury
2. If Omens of Clarity is up, cast Mangle if Mangle is down, otherwise cast Shred
3. If Savage Roar is down and Combo Points >= 2, cast Savage Roar
4. If Combo Points = 5 and Rip is down, cast Rip
5. If Combo Points = 5 and Rip is up, do nothing and wait for Rip to fade
6. If Rake is down, cast Rake
7. If Mangle is down, cast Mangle
8. If Energy >= 82 or cast Shred
9. If Energy >= 40 and Tiger's Fury cooldown has less than 1 second remaning, cast Shred

It can use a few more tweaks for a bit more DPS, but that's the best so far.
See The Druid Wiki � ToskksDPSGearMethod � discussion � re: THE ultimate dps rotation? for more details

_____
wowcatsim - Cat DPS Simulator

Well my strategy is pretty similar, the only changes are bolded:

1. If Tiger's Fury cooldown is up, cast Tiger's Fury if energy <=40
2. If Omens of Clarity is up, cast Mangle if Mangle is down, otherwise cast Shred
3. If Savage Roar is down and Combo Points >= 2, cast Savage Roar
4. If Combo Points = 5 and Rip is down, cast Rip
5. If Combo Points = 5 and Rip is up look down
6. If Rake is down, cast Rake
7. If Mangle is down, cast Mangle
8. If Energy >= energy.Shred+energy.mangle
9. If Energy >= 42 and Tiger's Fury cooldown has less than 1 second remaning, cast Shred

About point 5.
What to do with 5 cps depends on gear and situation.

Ferocious Bite scales better than RIP with ap, crit and ArP. That's why with my simulation using FB have sense. Also if you use FB you don't need to wait for RIP to expire. As I read if you have (it happens) 8 seconds left on RIP, 5cps and 90 energy you'll do shred, rake, mangle, waisting cps? FB is used in my cycle only to make up for extra rip ticks.

With my stats point 5 became:

5. If Combo Points = 5 and Rip is up:

Use Ferocious Bite if Rip timer > 10 seconds 
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 68 energy and  Rip debuff counter: 8
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 40 energy and Rip debuff counter: 6
If RIP left time is <4 seconds: wait for RIP to expire (do RIP if you are going for 100 energy)

With the stats used by Tange, I end up using FB once every 15-20 times, so basically our strategy are the same, the only difference is that my strategy is self-adaptative, I'll soon release a "piece" of my program code where You can see the strategy computed with your stats.

Korhaug · 10/12/08, 5:10 AM

Originally Posted by halmmar

I'm considering the head/shoulder enchants for bear form.

Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle looks rather weak, and Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector marginally better.

Should we just go for Greater Inscription of the Axe and Arcanum of Torment instead?

If only there were some stamina/dodge or stamina/ap enchants, but they had to add items like this instead.

I'm looking at using dps enchants for those slots as well. I doubt that we'll need the threat increase, but enchanting for defense gives me hives.

This, along with gemming agility, also gives me the possibility of using the same items for tanking and dpsing (since it's all dps gear anyway), which may be vauluable depending on what gear I can get my hands on. Planning for optimal gear settings for both sets is fine, but we all know the RNG hates us.

Huggme · 10/12/08, 5:41 AM

@summlan
I have found out an interesting thing...when I follow "Tangedyn" simulation in CatSim my SR, Mangle and Rake uptimes are at 98%.
However when I watch your "Tangedyn" simulation "bot" he has 92-94% uptime on those and ends up doing bit less dps.
Maybe I was just lucky with crits in the course of ~3 mins but shouldn't mangle rake and SR be up close to 100%?

nightcrowler · 10/12/08, 8:35 AM

@Summlan

Can you implement my strategy? (you should correct variable names maybe).

"Nightcrowler"
if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer<0) doMangle();
if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer>0 && RakeTimer<0 && BleedDebuff==0) doRake();
if(oocTimer>0 && MangleTimer>0) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=50) doBerserk();
if(SavageRoarTimer<0 && cp>=2) doSavageRoar();
if(RipTimer<=0 && cp==5) doRip();
if(RipTimer>10 && cp==5) doFerociousBite();
if(RipTimer>=7 && cp==5 && energybar.energy<=70) doFerociousBite();
if(RipTimer>=5 && cp==5 && energybar.energy<=40) doFerociousBite();
if(energybar.energy>=86 && cp==5) doRIP();
if(MangleTimer<0 && cp<5) doMangle();
if(RakeTimer<0 && cp<5) doRake();
if(energybar.energy>=67 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy>=42 && TigersFuryTimer<1 && cp<5) doShred();
if(energybar.energy<=38 && oocTimer<=0) doTigersFury();

in my program i use a functon that compute energy value and rip_timer for fb depending on ap and crit, tell me if you can implement it, and i'll give you that.

P.S.
excellent work!!

P.P.S.
fix: tiger's fury gives 100 energy instead of 60 in you simulator.

foxglove · 10/12/08, 11:25 AM

The dual-spec feature is a clear win for us. We can carry around our boss-tanking spec and our pure DPS spec, and get better performance out of both than was ever intended for hybrids before LK.

We are probably still going to be better at switching roles mid-combat than other classes. For example, I think that with a weapon switch to an armor weapon, a DPS-specced druid will probably be a better offtank than a DPS warrior who equips a shield, and our cat DPS in a tank spec will be better than a prot warrior's in his tank gear. Certainly, we will be at least as good.

Beace · 10/12/08, 11:33 AM

Well, depends. With this change, warriors will be able to switch roles just as easily as us (most likely, and not counting in-combat issues). This is all good and fine, assuming a bear specced feral can perform equally well as a prot warrior, and a cat specced feral can do just as much dps as a dps specced warrior. If a cat specced feral can only perform say 90% of a dps specced warrior, things will just go wrong.

tangedyn · 10/12/08, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

A more accurate estimate for full 80 blues with full raid buffs:

Attack Power: 8500
Crit: 46.5% (before -4.4%)
Hit: +6.5%
Expertise: +6.5%
Haste: +29.1% (w/o bloodlust)
+Damage: 12 (stone)
Damage mod: 116% (226.6% crit)

High armor boss 27% reduction, low armor boss 20%

Thanks Mijae, I will use these as the default values in the next release.
BTW, what is damage mod 116%?

Originally Posted by Valerian

This does seem to be getting me more DPS than the 5/5/5 cycle on summlan's simulator (and simulating this strategy gets even higher dps). The only "flaw" I see with it, is that with the base crit rate on the simulator I find I'm "wasting" combo points often. This seems to occur mainly when Rip and SR synch up. Both will still be running and I'll be at 5 combo points shredding/raking/mangling and then BOTH will drop and I'll have significant enough downtime on Rip by needing to build up combo points again to refresh them. Even worse, if Rip falls very slightly before SR you can end up with a fair bit of SR downtime (if say Mangle and Rake are running and you're doing the wait til 82 energy shred part). I think some conditional may be needed when at 5 combo points to check SR and Rip remaining time and determine what to do then (either FB or immediately refresh SR or something).

Yes, this is a known problem. We're just trying to find the best thresholds to switch to FB, or perhaps to perform an early Rip. Sometimes it may even be better to waste a few ticks of energy waiting for rip to drop than to use FB. I suspect there may not be a best answer for all cases too..

summlan · 10/12/08, 12:29 PM

@Huggme
My Tangedyn-simulation is probably not as complex as the one he is using.
I just copy/pasted his post and changed the variables to mine, so they might be abit off.

@Nightcrawler
Added your strategy.
I wonder if i should try to write a strategy-parser so one could write their own strategy in a textarea or something and then start the simulation. I will look into that.

-"in my program i use a functon that compute energy value and rip_timer for fb depending on ap and crit, tell me if you can implement it, and i'll give you that."

That shouldn´t be a problem, actionscript that flash uses is very close to C++.
I dont understand what it does tho. Does it compute how much damage the extra energy would do with fb?

Thank you for all the compliments. I wish i could say more but since my grammar is horrible i try to keep it short, i already got more infractions than posts and i want to be able to post here.

Mijae · 10/12/08, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by tangedyn

Thanks Mijae, I will use these as the default values in the next release.
BTW, what is damage mod 116%?

Switching the trinkets as mentioned earlier lowers haste and trades for hit and a little crit. Again, this is less important since numbers will vary slightly between players. Trinket use has been averaged in (AP is closer to 8400 w/o).

Attack Power: 8500
Crit: 47.1% (before -4.4%)
Hit rating: 267 (+8.1%)
Exp rating: 147 (+6.75% w/ PP)
Haste rating: 70 (+26.6% w/ WF & Swift Ret)
ArP rating: 48.5 (use avg)

The damage mod value is the multiplier applied to all damage counting Naturalist, Ferocious Inspiration, and Blood Frenzy. The crit mod counts Predatory Instincts and meta gem.