Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 201

Morthis · 10/13/08, 3:37 PM

For grinding, different people will probably do different things. In a raid, having an optimal cycle is important to maximize dps, without that, you are not performing up to par and could be the cause for a wipe (enrage timers, attrition, etc).

Solo grinding, that doesn't matter as much. The difference between someone with the perfect dps cycle (if there even is one) and someone just spamming mangle is going to be seconds, and killing slightly slower is not really an issue unless speed is important to you. Some people might like seeing the bigger numbers from shred and will pounce first so they can shred, some might just want to mindlessly spam one button so they can watch TV at the same time or something, etc.

That said, when I'm solo grinding I don't usually FB. I typically rip and just run off to pull the next mob (with FFF), once that mob gets low, I rip it and loot the one the previous one that died (should be right next to me), and move on again. I don't like the full energy loss from FB, and find that I'm usually spending energy again before 10 seconds have passed (depending on the camp of course).

kalbear · 10/13/08, 3:42 PM

On a related note to the optimal grinding spec, I'm now curious whether it's better to do prot-pally style grinding and kill 30+ mobs in bear form with swipe. Swipe does a fairly large amount of damage, especially compared to something like TClap or consecrate, and a bear should be able to handle multiple small mobs without too many problems, especially if you are doing this with inviting 4 random people into your party for a PotP bonus. The infinite rage will allow constant mauling and fairly large dps that way, and it's not like you will be crittable or dazeable in your cat gear any more.

Only question is whether most cat raiding specs even take feral instinct, but I think they would generally as a filler talent if nothing else.

• Melthu · 10/13/08, 3:43 PM

If you're going to use berserk while soloing it would probably be more worthwhile to pull a bunch of mobs in bear form, build up to 100 rage, and then mangle-spam them down. Single mobs die too quickly to make much use of it in cat form.

For that matter, AoE grinding with swipe may be better than taking down single targets in cat form.

Garanthir · 10/13/08, 4:28 PM

So far I've solo'd to 74 on Beta. Initially I had a blast stealthing, Kitty Charge, Pounce, Glyphed Shred, and if it was still alive doing a FB. Fun, but slow. Now I just Mangle, Rake using a Glyphed Rake so things can't flee, and FB at 3-4 CP's. With 5/5 RnT and 5/5 Feral Aggression FB is really nice for soloing/grinding. Also Rank7 (I believe) Rake is nice, depending on procs you'll see well over 1k ticks, stack a Rip on there and you can definitely run off and kill other mobs while they tick down.

summlan · 10/13/08, 5:03 PM

Lets do some math for our different finishers.

*** This post is updated since my math for FB was wrong ***

Im using same stats as Nightcrowler and this is what i get. (But i dont use Retri-aura) 26% boss-reduction.

Dps per Energy.

FB.extra: 89
FB: 383
Rip: 515
Shred: 154
Rake: 174 (without initial dmg)
Mangle: 120

So this tells us that no matter what its never good to have more than 35 energy when we use FB, since every energy over 35 do less DPE than any other ability we use.

FB vs Rip.

FB at 35 energy do 13407 damage
Rip does 15472 over 9 ticks (T7+glyph)

So Rip will always be better than FB

With 8 ticks over 16 seconds, rip does 13752

So this means that if Rip will be down for more than 16 seconds because you used FB it wasnt worth it.

According to Nightcrowlers simulations it will take an average of 10.6 seconds to get 5 combopoints.

If Savage Roar drops while youre building combopoints for Rip you need to refresh that first.
In best case scenarios Savage Roar will have 2 seconds left when you do FB and you got Tigers Fury up so
you can use TF right after FB, do one ability and refresh SR with 1 or 2 combopoints depending on crit.
That would give you close to 12 seconds to build up 5 new combopoints for you Rip correct?

It also means that its better to refresh rip if it has less than 2.4 seconds left than use FB.
rip(15472)-FB(13407) = 2065
Rip ticks for 1719, so 2065/1719 = 1.2 = 2.4 seconds.

If this is correct.
FB should be used if you got more than 2.4 seconds left on rip and Rip wont be down for more than 16 seconds.

if(energybar.energy<=40) doTigersFury();
if(SavageRoarTimer<1 && cp>0) doSavageRoar();
if(RipTimer<0 && cp==5) doRip();
if(MangleTimer<0) doMangle();
if(RipTimer<0 && cp==5) doRip();
if(RakeTimer<0 && cp!=5) doRake();
if(oocTimer>0 && cp!=5) doShred();
if(cp!=5 && energybar.energy>=72) doShred();
if(SavageRoarTimer<2 && cp==0 && energybar.energy<60) doMangle();
if(cp==5 && SavageRoarTimer>3 && RipTimer>3) doFerociousBite();
if(cp==5 && RipTimer<2 && energybar.energy>95) doRip();
if(cp==5 && SavageRoarTimer<2 && energybar.energy>95) doSavageRoar();

Mijae · 10/13/08, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by summlan

FB at 35 energy do 10285 damage
Rip does 15472 over 9 ticks (T7+glyph)

There is something wrong with those numbers. Are you not including either RnT or FA? The DPE of FB with RnT should be much closer to that of Rip. Also, again note that FB scales better than Rip and gets even closer with higher gear.

Meridia · 10/13/08, 9:24 PM

Hi guys, first time post here:

I sometimes run into a problem where I have 5 combo points, 90+ energy, 10+ seconds left on rip, and 15+ secs on roar. This usually happens after a couple back-to-back OOC shreds that may crit. What seems to be the best use of energy in this situation?

Also, Berserk seems to be pretty easy to use at the start of a fight, but say you're already 3 minutes into the fight and it comes back up. Is it best to change our rotation to favor shreds during the Berserk duration, and is it ever worth it to use Ferocious Bite with 4 or less combo points (like possibly in said Berserk)

Awesome job in this thread, guys! Thanks for all the info and I have very much enjoyed the read so far! =)

Tappin · 10/13/08, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

It doesn't matter how complex it is, if you do it forty thousand times, it won't take any thought. But playing those pouncing game rotations is simply slower than prepulling with fff. It doesn't even really matter how fast it kills a mob; in most of the grinding situations I've seen, I spend more time running to the next mob than I do fighting.

Edit: posted regarding raid dps cycles before I realized you were talking about soloing dps cycles.

Even a stealth, cat charge, pounce, rake, mangle, shred, fb cycle isn't hard for soloing.

It probably depends on how quickly mobs die. I love doing pounce, FFF, mangle, shred, shred on live. But if they die after a mangle, rake, mangle, fb I'll probably be doing that.

The major benefit to pounce is not that it does more/faster damage. It's that you generally take almost no damage before the mob dies, so you never need to heal yourself. But if the mobs die so fast that ILotP keeps you healthy or you can LB, Rejuv, LB yourself on the way to the next mob (with the new furor ticking), that works too.

Janraea · 10/13/08, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Tappin

Edit: posted regarding raid dps cycles before I realized you were talking about soloing dps cycles.

Even a stealth, cat charge, pounce, rake, mangle, shred, fb cycle isn't hard for soloing.

It probably depends on how quickly mobs die. I love doing pounce, FFF, mangle, shred, shred on live. But if they die after a mangle, rake, mangle, fb I'll probably be doing that.

The major benefit to pounce is not that it does more/faster damage. It's that you generally take almost no damage before the mob dies, so you never need to heal yourself. But if the mobs die so fast that ILotP keeps you healthy or you can LB, Rejuv, LB yourself on the way to the next mob (with the new furor ticking), that works too.

I admit, I rarely grind anything that takes more than 6 seconds to die. The throne elementals only ever take 8. Are we talking green gear here, or what? Or do things live that much longer at 80?

Huggme · 10/14/08, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I admit, I rarely grind anything that takes more than 6 seconds to die. The throne elementals only ever take 8. Are we talking green gear here, or what? Or do things live that much longer at 80?

What I have seen so far, normal mobs in Northrend usually take 6 seconds to kill with reasonable gear.

summlan · 10/14/08, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mijae

There is something wrong with those numbers. Are you not including either RnT or FA? The DPE of FB with RnT should be much closer to that of Rip. Also, again note that FB scales better than Rip and gets even closer with higher gear.

I just cant find where my math is off.

Edit: Sorry found the problem. Il update my first post about rip vs fb.

nightcrowler · 10/14/08, 5:03 AM

@ summlan

fb.adamage=(1-red)*((0.07*ap*(1+sr*src))*cp)*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+ferocity_m);
							fb.acritdamage=fb.adamage*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03);
							fb.bdamage=(1-red)*(190+290*cp)*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+ferocity_m);
							fb.bcritdamage=fb.bdamage*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03);
							fb.hit=yhit-fb.crit;
							
							Fb_damage = (1+RA*0.02)*(fb.hit*(fb.adamage+fb.bdamage)+fb.crit*(fb.acritdamage+fb.bcritdamage));
							fbextra_damage=(1-red)*(1+RA*0.02)*(fb.hit*((ap*(1+sr*src)*0.002439)+(9.4))+fb.crit*(((ap*(1+sr*src)*0.002439)+(9.4)))*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03))*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+ferocity_m);
							rip_damagextick = (1+RA*0.02)*((ap*(1+sr*src)*0.01*cp)+(39+21.0*IDOL_WS+99*cp))*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+mdebuff*0.3);
							shredMODIF_damage = shred.hit*((1+RA*0.02)*(shred.adamage*(1+sr*src)+shred.bdamage)*(1+ret_m1)*(1+0.3))+shred.crit*((1+RA*0.02)*((shred.acritdamage)*(1+sr*src)+shred.bcritdamage)*(1+ret_m1)*(1+0.3));
							
							ripvsfb =fb.energy + (Fb_damage + rip.energy*(shredMODIF_damage/shred.energy)  - (rip_damagextick * rem) -fb.energy*fbextra_damage) / ((shredMODIF_damage/shred.energy)-fbextra_damage);
						}

this is the output:

Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 1, Rip debuff counter: 17, RIPvsFB: 156
Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 2, Rip debuff counter: 15, RIPvsFB: 137
Use Ferocious Bite for any energy value, Rip ticks: 3, Rip debuff counter: 13, RIPvsFB: 118
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 99 energy, Rip ticks: 4, Rip debuff counter: 11, RIPvsFB: 99
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 80 energy, Rip ticks: 5, Rip debuff counter: 9, RIPvsFB: 80
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 61 energy, Rip ticks: 6, Rip debuff counter: 7, RIPvsFB: 61
Use Ferocious Bite if you have less than: 42 energy, Rip ticks: 7, Rip debuff counter: 5, RIPvsFB: 42
Use RIP, ticks: 8, Rip debuff counter: 3, RIPvsFB: 23
Use RIP, ticks: 9, Rip debuff counter: 1, RIPvsFB: 4

I've tried to manually tweak the FB threasold but I wasn't able to get better results so the formula seams ok

Why?

basically what I want is that:

Fb.damage + (en-fb.energy)*fbextra.damage //Ferocious bite damage
- (rip.damagextick * tick_expired) // Rip not wasted damage
- (en-rip.energy)*(shred.damage/shred.energy) >0 // Extra energy is used for a shred

Why taking into account RIP or SR refresh didn't work?
-Because you don't want to have RIP always up, you are using rake as a bleed ability so RIP is only there for damage, nothing else.
-Because if you RIP to soon you are wasting RIP time a.k.a doing less damage.
- Because if you wait RIP to expire or to reach 85-90 energy before refreshing you are waisting time and SR is more probable to expire. Basically what I've seen is that using FB doesn't waste CP for SR refreshing but make you gain CPs!!! the gain in resetting CPs is greater than the waste in using extra energy.
- Also the average energy usage of FB is 37 energy so usually you aren't waisting a lot of energy.

To do:
check SR and RIP waiting, shreding for extra energy and so on strategy, coming soon.

Example report:

DPS: 5011.87 +/- 16.7191, (Min-Max variance: 14.1526%, Lower dps sample: 4686.76, Upper dps sample: 5396.44) , Cat: 100%, Bear: 0%, TPS: 3560.27
 
************************************** 
              CAT 

White cat: 1780.67, Yellow cat: 3233.8
White: 35.5107% (SR: 24.7735%)
Mangle: 4.22357% (SR: 20.0318%, Avg dmg: 4053.13, #/cycle: 1.35482), Shred: 26.8101%  (SR: 17.7248%, Avg dmg: 6960.79, #/cycle: 5.00765), RIP: 12.625%  (SR: 15.8804%, Avg dmg: 16001.6, #/cycle: 1.0258)
Rake: 13.0347%  (SR: 17.2546%, Avg dmg: 6945.03, #/cycle: 2.44017), Ferocious Bite: 7.796%  (SR: 29.6832%, Avg dmg: 14194.9, #/cycle: 0.714057, Average Energy Usage: 37)
SR Total Value: 20.9634%, (RIP Value without SR)/(SR Value): 50.66%, Savage Roar uptime: 93.7463%

************************************** 
              OTHER INFOS 

Bleed debuff uptime: 96.9424%, Mangle debuff uptime: 92.6798%, Mangle-RIP debuff downtime: 0.0286217%
Average Cycle Time: 25.928.

Also remember that those value are for a high armored boss, for low armored boss FB shines.

Astrylian · 10/14/08, 5:44 AM

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summlan · 10/14/08, 5:57 AM

@Nightcrowler
fb.adamage=(1-red)*((0.07*ap*(1+sr*src))*cp)*(1+naturalist_m)*(1+ferocity_m);

This means that with 5 combopoints its 35% of ap that goes to FB?
Ive been using 24% of ap. No wonder our numbers where off yesterday.

Murna · 10/14/08, 7:25 AM

I would be pleased to see a reply to Meridians post:

Hi guys, first time post here:

I sometimes run into a problem where I have 5 combo points, 90+ energy, 10+ seconds left on rip, and 15+ secs on roar. This usually happens after a couple back-to-back OOC shreds that may crit. What seems to be the best use of energy in this situation?

Also, Berserk seems to be pretty easy to use at the start of a fight, but say you're already 3 minutes into the fight and it comes back up. Is it best to change our rotation to favor shreds during the Berserk duration, and is it ever worth it to use Ferocious Bite with 4 or less combo points (like possibly in said Berserk)

Awesome job in this thread, guys! Thanks for all the info and I have very much enjoyed the read so far! =)

after reading most of this thread, my conclusion is:

never rip with less than 5 CP, but what about doing FB with less than 5 CP?

what to do when 5 CP, 70 or more energy (perhaps due to mistake or 2t4 proccing), rip and SR 10+ seconds left?
Imo there are 5 options

1) waste energy regen
2) waste CP and just shred
3) waste Rip ticks and just refresh it
4) waste SR duration and just refresh it
5) use FB

my problem with FB: a high-energy FB is not very effective in terms of dmg per energy. also after that i need to build up CP's very, very fast. this usually leads to lower uptime of SR or rip.