I, too, would love some ranged means to break CC. All they'd have to do is allow the application of FFF to break CC.

I'd just love FFF to tag mobs. It's not much fun when you try to pull stuff in a crowded area (eg Isle) and while the mob is running to you some hunter shoots it.

Making FFF break CC might solve this but i bet it will have some disadvantages too.

Feral charge can't be used in all situation (think multi patrols, quick pulling with CC(while tanking)). I was thinking more of a shoot ability (feral spit , anyone? ) that does minor ranged damage in feral form . Of course you can always pop out of bear form cast and back in but i don't like being out of form while a lot is going on. I don't think its too much to ask of, considering every other tank class has such a ability while tanking.

What are the Paladin and Warrior ranged, instant cc breakers?

Well, they're not instant, but warriors can shoot in defensive stance, and paladins have avengers shield- the point being that niether of which will make them vulnerable for a few seconds.

I would exspect them to be unable to block while casting/shooting, perhaps even unable to parry, but I am not sure about this.

While we're on the topic of ferals in the expansion, I thought I'd share some ideas on cat form dps scaling but didnt feel a new thread was necessary.

As it is, we get very little reward from haste, hit (abundance of it seen so far in beta), and armor penetration. What I propose to fix all 3 of these is 2 changes.

1. Master Shapeshifter talent (btw cant this be merged with Natural Shapeshifter?): Instead of giving 4% crit, give it 4% chance on white hit to give 20 energy. No PPM, no internal CD, just 4%. Suddenly haste becomes useful since more hits translates to more yellows, which in turn is more dps.

Armor penetration then becomes useful too. With savage roar, which I'm assuming will be used in the rotation in the same manner as a rogue's SnD, we'll be doing twice as many shreds per rotation. 2-3 to get SR up, 2-3 to get rip up, possibly more if our crit rates are lowered (agility conversion nerf) but thats another issue all together.

I dont really know how item budget is calculated, but I'd guess a 4% proc would be worthy of a static 4% stat increaser. I know I'd take it any day, this would also fix the lowered crit rate 'issue' too. It'd scale regardless of gear!

2. Hit conversion. We've already seen a passive class conversion in Paladin's Spiritual Attunement. That converts heals they receive into mana. If we could convert say 1/4 or 1/2 of our over hit % into crit percentage that'd have a double benefit. It'd make use of the abundance of hit thats appearing on the new gear, and increase the lowered crit rates we're getting due to the agility nerf. Say the cap stays at 9%, but because of all the rogue gear we're wearing we round up 13%, that's 4% over... let us convert 1% or 2% of that into extra crit percentage. That way hit still has *some* value in our AP Equiv calcs.

Or is there some other magical method coming to allow cats, bears and rogues to share the same gear despite different stats being required?

I posted this in the suggestions section of wow forums already but got extremely little response. Do the better-skilled people of EJ think my suggestions are too strong, too weak or otherwise?

Honestly, with how dependant we have become on using 2pT4 in every aspect of BC PvE, I am suprised it hasnt popped up in talents already. But for the love of god please dont stick it in that mastershapshifter talent, Our feral tree has so much "I Need it" talents that I still havent figured out a theorycrafting build id be happy with.

That's why we're getting King of the Jungle, 60 energy every 30s when using Tiger's Fury works at as more energy per second than 2pcT4 and it boosts your physical damage too.

I think there's a deliberate focus on not making tanks significantly more survivable. Look at the 70-80 talents for other tank classes and you will notice that, like druids, almost all of the new talents are related to more damage, control, and threat. There is very little that extends time to live.

We did get one huge change you didn't mention. We gain 65 defense or over 150 defense rating (more at 80!) worth of item budget for free with the new SotF. That's a pretty huge change.

Will it be enough? Who knows. I am worried about agi changes and how they can make rogue gear work for bear form or plate (defense, parry block) tanks share non-armor slot items with us. But, I don't think druids are singled out as getting very little extra survivability in the expansion.

According to a Feral beta user, IW does not work on boss mobs. So, that frees up 3 points. Though, I still come up short of what I like to get.

Too bad IW doesn't have much use in PvE, I really wanted it for a little BG PvP and/or solo questing.

@ Torog

As of right now, it feels like they are somewhat forcing us to choose... Either you are very good at tanking or you are better at cat... As well as PvP talents thrown into the mix.

Hopefully it gets trimmed down before wrath, it also depends on blizzards vision for us in the expansion as a whole.

Primal Tenacity

Now reduces the duration of Fear effects by 10/20/30%
And reduces all damage taken while Stunned by 10/20/30%

Not to bad for pvp

Source World of Raids | World of Warcraft News Guides Guilds & Raid Progression

An elegant solution would be an Idol that made FFF (or all kinds of FF) do a miniscule amount of damage, enabling it to break cc or tag mobs when needed.

While a welcome addition, that doesn't make haste any more useful. It's starting to seem like we'll be sharing gear with rogues, but the stats on that gear will be optimal for rogues and not so much for cats.

I'm almost hoping that they introduce dual paw wielding in some other way now that Dire Cat is confirmed not to happen.

Retracted because I was wrong. Initially thought there was a cap at .83 attack speed.. others have reported being as low as a .60 attack speed under optimal conditions

Hi all.
This is the first time i wrote here, but I want to share with you my theorycraft.

I've made a direct simulation with all the theorycraft knowledge we have at the moment about scaling, ability, procs, etc.. for cat druid dps.

Disclaimer: This is a direct simulation, not a spreasheet, I really made a "virtual cat" attacking a boss.

I've put in all the talents and all the possible cycles, I've also tryied many different value for stats, but in a wide range the best cycle is always the same!

Those are my result:

-----------

Base Stats and buff:

10k ap, 30% crit, all the relevant buffs except feral aggression (we will see it later) and no special bonuses or trinkets, 9% hit, 0 expertise, Wind fury buff.
The boss has after sunder & co, 30% damage reduction from armor.

You also have to Powershift every time is needed (basically about 1-2 time x cycle).


----------

BEST cycle:

2 SR / 4 RIP (where 2 means 2 or 3 depending on crit and for means 4-5 depending on crit).

also: mangle always up, use shred for other attacks, don't use rip.

DPS: 2821 (if you have trauma and it stacks with mangle, will be about 2922).

now let's see what we loose removing talents (all talents up except the one removed):

Ability, DPS, Loss, Loss x Talent Point

NO Rend&Tea, 2776, 1,6%, 0.3%
NO NSS, 2724, 3.4%, 1.7%
NO Predatory Instinct, 2696, 4.4%, 0.9%
No ImpMangle, 2648, 6.1%, 2.0%
No Fury, 2781, 1.4%, 0.7%
No Precision, 2739, 2.9% 1.5%


Now with all talents up, try other cycles.

using 2SR/4RIP + rake: 2740
using 2SR/4FB + rake: 2771
using 2SR/4FB or RIP: 2772
using 4RIP/4FB: 2414
using 4RIP/4FB +rake: 2428
using 4RIP: 2584

using value different from 2 cp for SR is always a loss.
using value differnet from 4 cp for FB and RIP is always a loss.

On a side note with the "perfect cycle" you will have 35% white, 65% yellow damage.
WF only increase by 3% the relative value of our white damage because it also increase ooc proc and it increase yellow damage.
I've used Tiger Fury with KoJ every time I could.
I've Never used Berserk.


EDIT:
Having 5/5 Ferocity, the best cycle that use FB is 2SR / 4RIP or 4FB (if RIP is going on) but it gives (with the previous stats) only 4 dps increase (LOL)! With 50% crit and hit and expertise capped the situation is, strangely, not better but worse. The 2SR/4RIP cycle will give 3242 dps, the 2SR / 4RIP or 4FB (if RIP is going on) will give only 3149 dps.

On a side note, I've tested the cycles in a range of 7k-12k ap, 25%-50% crit, 6%-9% hit, 0-20 expertise. 2SR/4RIP is the best cycle in all ranges.

-----

I've runned very different simulation and in a large range, effectivelly I've prolly exagerated the ap and put a too low crit %.

x-SR/4RIP is the better cycle if u powershift and if you don't. It's also the best cycle indipendently from crit % and ap. What changes is the value of "x"
increasing ap and increasing crit % decrease the value of x.
Where the minimum is about 2 for high crit and/or high ap.
For low crit/ap (for example 6000 ap and 38% crit, the value I personally expect to have the day of expansion) 3SR/4RIP is more suitable but not by a big margin (20dps difference).

If you want to give me some value of hit, expertise, damage reduction, ap and crit % I can run some simulation for you

As for the code is simple.

I used the combat table (2 roll system for yellow) and an If..then method for the attack with the standard c++ RNG generator for the attack.

Where'd this capped number come from? I've never heard that mentioned before except for random spoutings on the Blizzard forums and if I recall, the number touted there was like 0.75 sec.

I've been worried about that also, until Astrylian posted actual data.
Agility/dodge ratio seems to be 19.5 for 1%@70 : that's as good as defense rating for warriors, regarding avoidance. The boost to our base dodge chance helps close the initial gap.
My guess is that the new bear tank will have only slightly more armor than the warrior, but about as much avoidance. And yes, that's in "rogue gear". I don't think there will be "green armor" leather anymore.

Again, retracted because i was mistaken about an attack speed cap.

In that case the BC high-armor leather items (especially the sunwell ones) might last very long into WotLK, since green armor is a much more effective way of increasing survivability than stamina is.

I noticed on MMO that Improved Mangle is back at 7% cooldown reduction for bear. If 3/3 gives 21%, that is 4.74 seconds cooldown (i am not sure however what the 3/3 value is). What do you think is the reason for this change?

I'd say that while it wont mess any our "rotations" that much (0.24 seconds wasted when waiting for Mangle), it simply seems irrational.

There needs to be a possible path between you and your target yes, however it doesnt need to be a straight path. for example, in Thor Modan i could FC(cat) from the water to a mob up on top, since there was a ramp somewhere at the back, however at Steel Gate i couldnt charge a mob up on a stone next to me since there was no path/ramp to the top of the stone.