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Old 07/19/08, 4:34 PM   #316
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Clandestine View Post
Thunderclap isn't necessarily always available, though. On add fights, such as Illidan, there are definitely times where you might be the only one attacking your mob, and depending on your raid set up, it could be difficult to get a warrior to run around thunderclapping your mob for you. As well, at level 80 in 10 man raids there will be a much higher chance that your raid won't have a warrior.
I really don't care about 10 mans; save for maybe at the beginning of lvl80 instances (basically TBC Karazhan), people in progression based raiding guild will outgear 10mans by at least one tier that it doesn't matter. If any 25 man environment dictates speccing of IF, i'll do that in a heartbeat. However, I don't target my spec towards smaller instances such as 10 or 5 man. By the same logic, you need to also spec 5/5 into Primal Aggression because you don't always have a warrior to do it for you, so why don't people take it?

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Old 07/19/08, 5:03 PM   #317
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
I haven't updated my model with the newest information, but many of the talents have not changed. Rend and Tear has a higher TPS per talent point than Master Shapeshifter does when unlimited rage (considering Natural Shapeshifter is useless when tanking). It is weaker when limited threat though.

Depending on how they implement the dual spec option, I think we can see optimal bear vs cat specs. Depending on the details between Swipe vs Lacerate, Feral Instinct might not even be worth taking anymore. King of the Jungle is much more suited for cat dps. With unlimited rage Shredding Attacks is pretty worthless for bear, though it's probably worth keeping just in case you ever go cat. Depending on 5/10/25 mans, Feral Aggression might be worth taking.

I can actually think of quite a few viable PvE specs now. Unfortunately, I don't see any way to fit in everything for a PvP spec.


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Old 07/19/08, 7:03 PM   #318
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Mijae View Post
Unfortunately, I don't see any way to fit in everything for a PvP spec.
Meh. I'm having a hard time coming up with a PvE spec that isn't missing at least 2-3 important points that I'd love to keep. Nevermind the PvP spec, which is a headache in its own right.

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Old 07/20/08, 12:49 AM   #319
wuffles
Bald Bull
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
All the more reason I think they should reduce Naturalist to 3/3 with the same max rank bonus - it seems like an easy place to give ferals 2 extra points in the feral tree and doesn't really affect any of the other specs.

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Old 07/20/08, 3:06 AM   #320
Cluey
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by wuffles View Post
All the more reason I think they should reduce Naturalist to 3/3 with the same max rank bonus - it seems like an easy place to give ferals 2 extra points in the feral tree and doesn't really affect any of the other specs.
Either that or remove the requirement of Natural Shapeshifter from Master Shapeshifter, there are certainly too many talents which most of us would label must haves. It reminds me of the old days before we got merged talents and the feral ones were split in all three trees and many were mutually exclusive, well not quite that bad.
If they were unlinked the individual players could spend points on how it suits our play styles best, I don't really enjoy PvP so I never take Natural Shapeshifter but I will be forced into it as missing Master Shapeshifter would appear to be a bad mistake.

To me it looks very like the way Predatory Strikes currently is, a pre-requisite we are forced to take but given the choice many of us would skip.
Speaking of Predatory Strikes, while the talent is better than it was all it is really doing is locking us into upgrading weapons to the next highest ilvl we get to pick up. If the item budget is poorly spent 20% more from the weapons feral attack power will most likely make the higher ilvl weapon better even if the stats are spent in a comical way.

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Old 07/20/08, 5:12 AM   #321
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Well, one can only hope that they've learned a lot about feral itemization over the course of BC. But it seems to me that with any itemization, good or bad, Predatory Strikes is a very worthwhile investment. It's 300+ attack power at level 70, which is nothing to sneeze at, and it will only scale up as ilvls soar. For reference, Heart of the Wild grants, what, 450 attack power (for 5 points) and is considered one of our best talents. Per point, Predatory Strikes is giving just as much AP in its current incarnation.

Unlinking Natural Shapeshifter and Master Shapeshifter seems like a good choice; I wonder if reducing Predatory Instincts to 3 points would be out of the question. If Naturalist were 3 points, that would also encourage Resto druids to pick it up (since it looks like they're trying to encourage trees to use HT again).

--

I remembered seeing that Infected Wounds was, at one point, 10% snare and 10% casting speed reduction, but all the previews now say attack speed. Am I misremembering? Was that from an early alpha build? It seems like 20% melee speed reduction or 50% casting speed reduction would make a lot more sense than 50% melee speed.

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Old 07/20/08, 5:29 AM   #322
Carlos
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eredar (EU)
As they took away the difference of Spellhaste and Haste it could be a result of that. There is only one Haste on all Equipment now that improves Spell and Melee speed.

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Old 07/20/08, 5:39 AM   #323
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
As they took away the difference of Spellhaste and Haste it could be a result of that. There is only one Haste on all Equipment now that improves Spell and Melee speed.
True, but there are many, many talents and abilities that affect only one or the other. Windfury/Wrath of Air is the most obvious example of this.

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Old 07/20/08, 6:18 AM   #324
Shuror
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Priest
 
Bladefist (EU)
Infected Wounds is down to 4% less attack speed per stack, though the tooltip doesn't yet reflect it. This brings it in line with Curse of Weakness/Thunderclap/Judgements of the Just when fully stacked.

It is a sign of it working on raid bosses. The 50% slow was obviously too much.

Infected Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft
Note the "-4" effect on melee haste.

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Old 07/20/08, 9:24 AM   #325
Beasty
Glass Joe
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Jaedenar (EU)
Hmm in some ways that's brilliant but the tree is bloated enough as it is, still 1 point should be enough to keep it up most of the time and we will probably get points freed up in later builds.


Fingers crossed for the beta I can't wait to try this out.

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Old 07/20/08, 10:07 AM   #326
Grotholl
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Zadnak View Post
I guess what we really need to wait and see is if the new Arms Warrior talent Trauma stacks with Mangle. If so, Rip and Rake will be worth using.
Would it be possible to keep both rip, savage roar and rake up(considering it lasts 9 secs iirc) for the FB finisher though?

I guess it would be something like Mangle/Shred/Rake to 5cp>Savage Roar, Repeat(with rip instead), Repeat, then FB(It sounds like a pretty tight rotation to me)

Last edited by Grotholl : 07/20/08 at 10:19 AM.

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Old 07/20/08, 11:40 AM   #327
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Grotholl View Post
Would it be possible to keep both rip, savage roar and rake up(considering it lasts 9 secs iirc) for the FB finisher though?

I guess it would be something like Mangle/Shred/Rake to 5cp>Savage Roar, Repeat(with rip instead), Repeat, then FB(It sounds like a pretty tight rotation to me)
Even now with a bad streak of non-crits or avoided attacks I can end up with rip falling off (though it is rare). And this is with a whole hell of a lot more crit than I'm likely to have until a fair bit into WotLK raiding. I can't see keeping up a 3 finisher cycle except in the case where you pop berserk and half all your energy costs. I suspect it'll be similar to a rogue cycle of Xpoint SR/5 point damaging finisher (Rip or FB depending on what turns out to be better).

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Old 07/20/08, 11:44 AM   #328
Cluey
King Hippo
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Shuror View Post
Infected Wounds is down to 4% less attack speed per stack, though the tooltip doesn't yet reflect it. This brings it in line with Curse of Weakness/Thunderclap/Judgements of the Just when fully stacked.

It is a sign of it working on raid bosses. The 50% slow was obviously too much.

Infected Wounds - Spell - World of Warcraft
Note the "-4" effect on melee haste.
Well that is good and bad news all at once.
Good in that we won't need a warrior for Thunder Clap but bad as we need three points and five unavoided attacks to guarantee the 20% melee slow. Yes we can do it with less than the maximum talents and I am sure someone will do some maths on how many points is best or enough.

If you have a look at the new paladin talent tree you can see they have a talent called Judgements of the Just which is a two point talent giving a 10/20% slow from all Judgements made on the target.
This means that all three current tanking classes can reduce our targets attack speed by up to 20%.
For a warrior it requires three talent points and a GCD on a four second cool down but it affects four targets.
For a paladin it is two talent points but a ten second cool down with talents to make it an eight second cool down.
For druids it is three talent points and five attacks which hit, one attack is on a six second cool down and the other is based on our auto attack speed of two and a half seconds.

I find it quite amusing that the class recognised as the best choice, by many, for tanking single mobs has a four target slow effect and the class best at AoE targets can only slow single targets every eight seconds.

It is interesting that it is applied by Shred as well, this means that after we have a stack built a warrior tank won't need to use a GCD to maintain Thunder Clap which helps them increase their threat. I would expect them to get Thunder Clap up while we build our slowing stack though, assuming that tank death is a concern.

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Old 07/20/08, 1:01 PM   #329
Vidandric
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Zul'Jin
Is it just me or is Improved Mangle a Joke for Bear? Having any points in it will just cause clipping right? If anything, 2/3 for 1 second off and that clips .5 seconds -lag. They need to change it to where it doesn't clip. Something like 1,2,3 seconds :P Oh man if we could mangle every three seconds lol.

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Old 07/20/08, 1:24 PM   #330
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Why ? This places it on a 4.5s timer, which fits perfectly with the 1.5s GCD.

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