Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 220

Daboran · 10/27/08, 6:46 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

Stuns aren't classified as a movement impairment, nor are fears, nor are incapacitates (nor is JoJ X( ) I really think that, having lost the bonus health, Berserk needs to have the Beast Within effect put back in, but i guess this is a discussion for the PvP forum.

I think there needs to be some more work on the stun philosphy by Blizzard.

Though they have in the past said that they try to reduce effects which make you unable to do anything with your character, stuns seem if anything to have been increased recently. There's not much "skill" involved if you lose over half your hp bar before all the stuns wear off. The PvP trinket is a pretty clunky fix, which isn't even reliable.

Draugdae · 10/27/08, 9:21 AM

I'm not sure if I've seen any testing on this and searches in this thread for Protector of the Pack haven't provided me what I'm looking for, but:

Does Protector of the Pack stack additively or multiplicatively with armor for physical damage?

Assuming 60% DR from armor:
Additively: 1-(.6+.12) = 28% damage taken
Multiplicatively: (1-.6)(1-.12) = 35.2% damage taken

david0925 · 10/27/08, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Draugdae

I'm not sure if I've seen any testing on this and searches in this thread for Protector of the Pack haven't provided me what I'm looking for, but:

Does Protector of the Pack stack additively or multiplicatively with armor for physical damage?

Assuming 60% DR from armor:
Additively: 1-(.6+.12) = 28% damage taken
Multiplicatively: (1-.6)(1-.12) = 35.2% damage taken

It'll most likely be multiplicative in terms of damage taken, so your second case is correct.

40% damage taken, then that number is reduced by another 12% > 40% * 0.88 = 35.2% damage received.

tlbj6142 · 10/27/08, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Rhaegal

Not to mention the fact that Rend and Tear is only useful for cat soloing if mobs generally aren't even close to dead by the time you hit 4-5 CPs.

I finally got around to testing this weekend on lvl 72 quest mobs above Shat. You are correct, there is no point using a RnT enhanced FB to kill quest mobs. I use FFF->Rake->Mangle*X and most were dead by the 3rd mangle. And those what weren't would have died from a normal FB or another white attack or two. Guess I need to re-think my leveling spec....

FWIW, I had ~3400 AP, ~38% cirt and ~130 hit and 10 exp.

Another thing I started doing this weekend (during a kara run) was create a TF macro that triggers my trinkets (that way I don't forget to use them).

/use 13
/use 14
/cast Tiger's Fury

Rhaegal · 10/27/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by halmmar

I was planning on getting all the goodies for kitty grinding.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With respect to leveling specs, I really like this one (though I'm not sure if I'd get OoC or Berserk at 70) except I move the points from Thick Hide to Feral Instinct. It's absolutely not a raid DPS spec (RnT is clearly a winner for either a shred-spam or mangle-spam DPS spec, I just find it has no place in a leveling efficiency spec), but I've been playing around with various combinations of cat talents on live, and while there are higher-output leveling specs, I've found this to be the most efficient, rarely ever having to stop and heal, and never having to drink (which I find I have to do now and then if I don't have Imp LotP).

geela234 · 10/27/08, 11:30 AM

I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.

I see no issue getting these talents over other, less effective talents. The OoC can wait and, IMO, Primal Precision is a joke, 10 expertise at 80, at least from what I've read, is around .33%, and if you're not using finishers the secondary ability is pointless.

Also I've always been a supporter of having some PvP talents while leveling. I always find myself in a situation where PvP is happening while leveling and now that people can't run and get there 70s they are more likely to leave you alone and let you finish the quest.

Draugdae · 10/27/08, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by geela234

I see no issue getting these talents over other, less effective talents. The OoC can wait and, IMO, Primal Precision is a joke, 10 expertise at 80, at least from what I've read, is around .33%, and if you're not using finishers the secondary ability is pointless.

Primal Precision provides 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It will give the same percentage that it gives at level 70, i.e. 2.5%.

edit: clarify which talent.

Rhaegal · 10/27/08, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by geela234

I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.

I've played around with that, and I agree that it's a perfectly good (and fun!) strategy, but my problem with it was that I felt like I was spending five talent points to give a 20% buff to an attack I use once a fight. I leveled that way (pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred) when I was powerleveling through lvl 50 content in lvl 20 greens, but I just find that it's so much faster to pull with FFF and just mangle spam mobs down.

Rangifer · 10/27/08, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by geela234

I would agree that the improved FB crit on RnT isn't that useful when leveling up but the 20% increase to shred is enough for me. I usually open with (TF if up)pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred all before pounce stun wears off. Between mangle, RnT and the shred glyph you can get 70% +dmg from shred. The combo requires you to have brutal impact and shredding attacks, but with high enough crit you can get a mob to 25% no problem. Finish it off with a FB or maim/shred depending on combo points.

That sequences wastes 60 energy if you have King of the Jungle. Instead, even without Brutal Impact, you can pounce->Rake->TF->Mangle->Shred before the stun wears off, since TF is off the GCD. You can of course substitute FFF for Rake if you feel like it, shifting TF after Mangle. Note that this sequence works as long as you have Ferocity and King of the Jungle. Shredding Attacks, Imp Mangle, and set bonuses are not required.

TheNameLessOne · 10/27/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Yes.From your question I must assume that they didn't fix it. Druids on beta should really do a chaos for that.

If thge don't fix it the theorical dps goes down from 4820 to 4740.
Edit: with the Tiger Fury nerf we are at 4705 now.

We have, they still haven't even given an answer. So its just kinda of stuck in limbo of "is it a bug" or "is it intentional".

geela234 · 10/27/08, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by Draugdae

Primal Precision provides 10 expertise, not 10 expertise rating. It will give the same percentage that it gives at level 70, i.e. 2.5%.

edit: clarify which talent.

Thanks for clearing that up, I knew it couldn't be as bad as I thought

Originally Posted by Rangifer

That sequences wastes 60 energy if you have King of the Jungle. Instead, even without Brutal Impact, you can pounce->Rake->TF->Mangle->Shred before the stun wears off, since TF is off the GCD. You can of course substitute FFF for Rake if you feel like it, shifting TF after Mangle. Note that this sequence works as long as you have Ferocity and King of the Jungle. Shredding Attacks, Imp Mangle, and set bonuses are not required.

Brutal Impact isn't as good as it used to be, and I really hate having to get it just for the pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred combo. I do think that King of the Jungle would help it out, although you could only do it once every 30 seconds. I'm sure you could get them both while leveling and get multiple shreds off. Also I think it would be worth figuring out if Rake or FFF ends up giving you more dmg in the combo.

kalbear · 10/27/08, 2:27 PM

Has anyone got very concrete data on exactly what the threat is on mangle, maul, lacerate and swipe now? I've not seen direct numbers provided so far when searching, only a specific example of what maul's value is - but that was for months ago.

tlbj6142 · 10/27/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Has anyone got very concrete data on exactly what the threat is on mangle, maul, lacerate and swipe now?

Would think this would be easy to get now that we know the exact threat caused by each attack due to Blizzard's threat meter api. Have a naked buff-less bear attack mob x, record number displayed by Omen3 (or whatever it is called now). Though, I guess that doesn't give us the "math" (AP scaling, etc.) behind the number.

Rangifer · 10/27/08, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by geela234

Brutal Impact isn't as good as it used to be, and I really hate having to get it just for the pounce/FFF/Mangle/Shred combo. I do think that King of the Jungle would help it out, although you could only do it once every 30 seconds. I'm sure you could get them both while leveling and get multiple shreds off. Also I think it would be worth figuring out if Rake or FFF ends up giving you more dmg in the combo.

Comparing Pounce->Rake->Mangle->Shred->FFF to Pounce->FFF->Mangle->Shred->Rake, the difference in damage is 1 tick of rake vs 3 Autos, 1 Mangle, and 1 Shred with the AC reduction of FFF (TF were appropriate assumed). Ignoring the effect of CPs:

Rake is 414+0.18*AP over 3 ticks. or 138+0.06*AP for 1 tick.

Assuming a lvl 70 on a lvl 70 mob with 20% DR (2640 AC), FFF would lower AC to 2030 (16.1%), increasing damage by 3.9% (relative to 0% DR). 3 Autos + 1 Mangle + 1 Shred = 7.25 WD + 735. With 55 dps base WD, this is (7.25*(55+AP/14) + 735)*0.039 = 44.22 + 0.020*AP damage gained.

Assuming I did everything correctly, this means that the Rake tick deals 3x the damage of the effects of FFF. So, even with a 100% crit rate, the Rake tick wins. Having Savage Fury and Rend & Tear would buff Rake, Mangle, and Shred, but not white damage, making raking even better relative to FFF. I'm pretty sure Rake wins out even with the Glyph, Idol, and 4T5 for Shred and the bonus crit damage from Predatory Instincts and the meta gem.

kalbear · 10/27/08, 3:47 PM

Would think this would be easy to get now that we know the exact threat caused by each attack due to Blizzard's threat meter api. Have a naked buff-less bear attack mob x, record number displayed by Omen3 (or whatever it is called now). Though, I guess that doesn't give us the "math" (AP scaling, etc.) behind the number.

It should be easy enough to get the scaling too. I had hoped that this was already done somewhere, but it may not be.

The easiest way to get fairly reliable information is to have three sets of gear: naked, low AP and high AP. Get readings for damage for all of those, record the damage you dealt, and you should be able to get an overall idea of how much threat each ability causes and how they scale with AP.

If that hasn't been done, I'll start working on it. In particular I would like to find out whether there is a reasonable point where swipe overcomes lacerate spam.