Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 228

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 1:55 AM

Hey all. With WotLK's release approaching, and it having been quite a while since the last time anyone tested Bear threat values, I figured I should retest everything. Here are my results (this is with max rank spells at level 80):

NOTE: You'll notice a multiplier of '29/14' used commonly; that's the standard bear form multiplier. It comes from our original threat in 2.0, with Salv factored in (1.15+0.3)/0.7, or 1.45/0.7, or 29/14. Also, anywhere you see this multiplier, if you shift out of bear form, this multiplier disappears. Similarly, if you cast a HOT or DOT in cat/caster and then shift to bear form, their threat does get multiplied by 29/14. So if you're OTing, and expect to take over MTing soon, Mangle+SR+Rake+Rip+BearForm will make the strong Rip/Rake dot ticks do 29/14 multiplied threat.

Attacks
Mangle - Bear: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Maul: (29/14) * (DAMAGE + (424 / #_OF_TARGETS))
Lacerate: (29/14) * (DAMAGE + 1031) / 2
Lacerate DOT: (29/14) * (DAMAGE) / 2
Swipe: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Melee: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Faerie Fire (Feral): (29/14) * (DAMAGE + 632)

Other
Thorns: (29/14) * DAMAGE
Natural Reaction: (5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Primal Fury: (29/14) * (2.5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Enrage: (29/14) * (5 * RAGE_GAINED) / #_OF_TARGETS
Demoralizing Roar: 127 / #_OF_TARGETS
Challenging Roar: 203 / #_OF_TARGETS
Feral Charge - Bear: 165
Clearcasting: 20 / #_OF_TARGETS
Self Healing: (29/14) * (HEALED / 2) / #_OF_TARGETS (Includes Regrowth, Rejuv, Lifebloom, Frenzied Regeneration)
Barkskin: 92 / #_OF_TARGETS
Improved Leader of the Pack: 0
Infected Wounds: 0
Furor: 0

nightcrowler · 11/02/08, 2:26 AM

@ Astrylian:
Really good job, as always. Are those values for level 80 or 70? Are you sure about Mangle-Bear? Last time I cheked I came out with a 1.5 multiplier, I'll retest it.

A really noob question: Does talents increasing damage also increase static threat?

@ Armor multiplier:

I think that the best way to solve armor itemization problem will be lowering our multiplier from 4.7 to 3.2 (this will make armor in par with stamina from an item-budget point of view) and give us 2 armor for each point of Attack Power in bear form (this will make a better use of roguish gear and str/stam/dodge gadgets).
If other specs suffers from this they can simply give them 4 armor for each point of Spell Power.

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 2:35 AM

That was all at level 80, with max ranks of each spell. Will edit that post to add that.

I didn't test that specifically, but I assumed that no, talents that add multipliers to spell damage just multiplied the damage, not the static components.

• Abradix · 11/02/08, 3:06 AM

Talents dont increase the static threat part, if you play around with completely untalented maul, you'll see that the static threat is still 425, or 424 if Astrylian is correct. Last I did my testing on beta though, Mangle did still have it's multiplier, and I doubt they removed it in the past several weeks. My beta install broke a few weeks ago so I can't test it right now, but mangle is the one number that seems off in your testing Astry.

Lastly, just put in 207% modifier instead of 29/14? It means the exact same thing but 207% will make it easier to read for alot of people.

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 3:37 AM

The constants are hard to get perfectly accurate due to rounding; it may very well be 425. I rechecked my data and math on Mangle, it didn't have a multiplier. In each of my tests, threat generated was between 2.08 and 2.07 times the damage.

OH, I almost forgot. There was one major surprise. The static (not all of it, just the 424 static) threat on Maul gets split between the two targets if you have Glyph of Maul and it hits 2 targets. Updated the post to reflect that. Going to redo the Mangle test now, just to be sure.

EDIT: Redid the Mangle test, no threat multiplier on Mangle.

Falk · 11/02/08, 4:50 AM

Holy crud, I misread that as "the threat on maul is split" and was about to post a really long, angry response.

This is a little old, but it seems a full stack of lacerate is actually worth keeping up other than dps implications.

• Abradix · 11/02/08, 5:01 AM

It's not that odd, it actually makes sense that Lacerate is now somewhat useable because I doubt they intended it to be as useless as it ended up being in TBC.

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 4:00 PM

Today, I checked the total damage formula of each bear attack, here are the results (again, at level 80, using max rank spells):

Formula Components
BASE: 137+(AP/14)*2.5 (basic auto-attack damage without other multipliers; used in several of the attacks)
NATURALIST: 1 + (0.02 * POINTS_IN_NATURALIST) (1.1 with 5/5 Naturalist)
MASTER: 1 + (0.02 * POINTS_IN_MASTER_SHAPESHIFTER) (1.04 with 2/2 Master Shapeshifted)
SAVAGE: 1 + (0.1 * POINTS_IN_SAVAGE_FURY) (1.2 with 2/2 Savage Fury)
INSTINCT: 1 + (0.1 * POINTS_IN_FERAL_INSTINCT) (1.3 with 3/3 Feral Instinct)
MANGLE: 1.3 if Mangle or Trauma is up, 1.0 otherwise
RENDTEAR: 1 + (0.04 * POINTS_IN_REND_AND_TEAR) (1.2 with 5/5 Rend and Tear)
ARMOR: The % of physical damage taken by the target after armor

Bear Attacks
Melee: BASE * NATURALIST * MASTER * ARMOR
Maul: (BASE + 578) * NATURALIST * MASTER * SAVAGE * MANGLE * RENDTEAR * ARMOR
Mangle - Bear: (BASE * 1.15 + 299) * NATURALIST * MASTER * SAVAGE * ARMOR
Swipe: (AP * 0.063 + 108) * NATURALIST * MASTER * INSTINCT * ARMOR
Faerie Fire (Feral): (AP * 0.05 + 1) (NOTE: Naturalist is NOT applied, Master Shapeshifter, Armor is NOT applied. Crits use a 1.5 base crit multiplier, not 2.0. Is still affected by +3% crit damage metagem. Does NOT proc Primal Fury or Improved Leader of the Pack)
Lacerate: (AP * 0.01 + 88) * NATURALIST * MASTER * ARMOR (NOTE: That's correct, it's not affected by Mangle, and it is affected by armor.)
Lacerate DOT Tick: (AP * 0.01 + 64) * STACK_SIZE * MASTER * NATURALIST * MANGLE (NOTE: Stacks to 5, ticks 5 times, once every 3 sec, tick timer not reset by reapplication)

Let me know if anyone sees anything wrong with these.

EDIT: Added Master Shapeshifter

manapaws · 11/02/08, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Falk

This is a little old, but it seems a full stack of lacerate is actually worth keeping up other than dps implications.

Yes, especially considering we won't have our 4t6 to increase our swipe. Also, 2t7 is +5% damage to lacerate. It'll be tasty for both damage and threat

Sidebar: Was fun cycloning you Falk on Lady Sylvanas this week. Finished 12 short of City Defender achievement though.

Beace · 11/02/08, 4:45 PM

This might be a stupid question, but how exactly does the damage range works for druids? For other classes, I've just assumed it's the damage range on the weapons (say 230-290), but in feral forms it's all about AP? Why can a white hit do 300, and then 310 the next hit?

Mijae · 11/02/08, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Faerie Fire (Feral): (AP * 0.05 + 1) (NOTE: Naturalist is NOT applied, Armor is NOT applied. Crits use a 1.5 base crit multiplier, not 2.0. Is still affected by +3% crit damage metagem. Does NOT proc Primal Fury)

Do you have an idea of the crit chance for this? Would this count all crit accept from agility?

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Lacerate DOT: (AP * 0.01 + 64) * STACK_SIZE * NATURALIST * MANGLE (NOTE: Stacks to 5, ticks 5 times, once every 3 sec, tick timer not reset by reapplication)

Is this correct? The tooltip on Wowhead says 320 per application, not total (64*5).

Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 4:53 PM

There's a base damage for the forms. It's not huge... It's an average of 137, but I don't recall the range offhand.... 107 to 167 or something like that.

Originally Posted by Mijae

Do you have an idea of the crit chance for this? Would this count all crit accept from agility?

Is this correct? The tooltip on Wowhead says 320 per application, not total (64*5).

Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.

Don't know the crit chance on FFF yet. Oh, and it doesn't proc iLotP either, BTW.

Those Lacerate numbers are for a single tick. So it is base of 320 over the full duration, 64 per tick.

manapaws · 11/02/08, 4:58 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Do you have an idea of the crit chance for this? Would this count all crit accept from agility?

From my testing, it's spell crit. This would also demonstrate why it does not proc Primal Fury nor Leader of the Pack.

• Abradix · 11/02/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Note - Using updated numbers, my estimates are putting Lacarete spam threat behind Swipe spam again. Since Swipe scales better with AP it only gets worse with better gear. If the "64" number above is correct, Lacerate would only be worth using as a bleed for RnT. Otherwise (in tier 7) it's still worth keeping up the Lacerate bleed, but I can definitely see a point where Swipe will out-scale it again. Similarly, FF is better than both in T7 but Swipe will end up out-scaling it.

For "spamming" this is right and already established 10-15 pages ago, if you're at the point where your swipes average more then 550-ish damage it's better to swipe spam then lacerate. What Falk was talking about is keeping up a 5stack though, something that at the moment is a TPS loss (yet a dps gain) on boss fights, but in LK it'll always be worth keeping up at least, assuming the fight is of decent length.

Mijae · 11/02/08, 6:56 PM

Originally Posted by Abradix

For "spamming" this is right and already established 10-15 pages ago, if you're at the point where your swipes average more then 550-ish damage it's better to swipe spam then lacerate. What Falk was talking about is keeping up a 5stack though, something that at the moment is a TPS loss (yet a dps gain) on boss fights, but in LK it'll always be worth keeping up at least, assuming the fight is of decent length.

Well, Astrylian's post was the first confirmation of final threat values I've seen, so nothing previously established imo. I'm not sure what post you're referring to of Falk's, mine was in response to Astrylian's. Giving a hard number for Swipe for when it beats Lacerate isn't as easy as a hard number (550 is definitely not it). It's not easy to determine your average damage from just your combat log. My point was where this break occurs in terms of content. Specifically, if the numbers had changed as drastically as I initially interpreted them from his post it would have occured very early and made Lacerate obsolete. Since I misread them, it's not the case.

In fact, the opposite is true. Lacerate spam will be better than Swipe spam even in full Naxx 25 gear. Additionally, it changes the fact that Swipe spam will never out-scale just maintaining the Lacerate bleed. This was my main concern.