Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 229

• Abradix · 11/02/08, 7:19 PM

It is very easy to determine a hard number where swipe beats lacerate, and it is around 550. The static threat component for Lacerate is around 1050, after our 207% multiplier. I had it at 1100 earlier, which is reasonably in line if you take the damage of it into account as well. In order to break 1100 threat for one lacerate you need 531, which is where that number originates from.

Now lacerate threat appears to be slightly over 1100, more around 1150 if you take the damage including multiplier into account, so the number where swipe overtakes Lacerate will be between 550 and 600 average damage, which again is very easy to calculate. Assuming you have Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter and Primal Instinct, your average swipe damage will be (AP * 0.0937 + 160) * 1.Crit_chance * Target armor. Note how relatively easy this is to get above 600. By the time you're kitted out in Naxx10+25 gear, swipe will already be superior single target TPS/DPS compared to lacerate "spam", not counting the bleed which you'll be keeping up.

Mijae · 11/02/08, 8:27 PM

Originally Posted by Abradix

It is very easy to determine a hard number where swipe beats lacerate, and it is around 550. The static threat component for Lacerate is around 1050, after our 207% multiplier. I had it at 1100 earlier, which is reasonably in line if you take the damage of it into account as well. In order to break 1100 threat for one lacerate you need 531, which is where that number originates from.

Now lacerate threat appears to be slightly over 1100, more around 1150 if you take the damage including multiplier into account, so the number where swipe overtakes Lacerate will be between 550 and 600 average damage, which again is very easy to calculate. Assuming you have Naturalist, Master Shapeshifter and Primal Instinct, your average swipe damage will be (AP * 0.0937 + 160) * 1.Crit_chance * Target armor. Note how relatively easy this is to get above 600. By the time you're kitted out in Naxx10+25 gear, swipe will already be superior single target TPS/DPS compared to lacerate "spam", not counting the bleed which you'll be keeping up.

Lacerate spam includes the bleed. You can't just ignore it. When comparing spamming each, the bleed is enough to make it better even past the Naxx 25 level. Of course that hard number can be calculated also.

Now if you're talking about the break point between Lacerate spam and just keeping the bleed up, that's a different argument. I already agreed it will beat Lacerate spam at all gear levels. I didn't say it's hard to calculate a hard number. I say it's not easy to tell someone a number break point because you can't get it directly from either a combat log or your character sheet. You need something like WWS (or a formula estimate) and even then RNG comes into play.

Regardless, my point again was at what content level break points occur at not at what value. It ends up not mattering since we'll be above that level even in blues.

david0925 · 11/02/08, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mijae

Lacerate spam includes the bleed. You can't just ignore it. When comparing spamming each, the bleed is enough to make it better even past the Naxx 25 level. Of course that hard number can be calculated also.

Now if you're talking about the break point between Lacerate spam and just keeping the bleed up, that's a different argument. I already agreed it will beat Lacerate spam at all gear levels. I didn't say it's hard to calculate a hard number. I say it's not easy to tell someone a number break point because you can't get it directly from either a combat log or your character sheet. You need something like WWS (or a formula estimate) and even then RNG comes into play.

Regardless, my point again was at what content level break points occur at not at what value. It ends up not mattering since we'll be above that level even in blues.

you can ignore the bleed effect after you maintain 5 stack and is just using lacerate every 15 seconds to maintain the bleed. At that point, each swipe's aggro is compared to each lacerate's frontal threat due to the fact that you don't get double bleed bonus from using lacerate again; in both cases the 5 stack lacerate is ticking.

The expected value is basically calculated already at which swipe beats lacerate on average. However, if you're the type of person that chooses to go for the worst case scenario, then you should stick to lacerate spam. In both cases, however, I sincerely doubt that threat can remotely catch you. In this case i'd rather go with the swipe cycle and just maintain lacerate due to the higher dps provided.

Astrylian · 11/02/08, 11:54 PM

Using those calculations, and one of my current armor sets (mostly complete sunwell gear, agi-centric gemming, with 2T6 and 4T6), I get these DPS/TPS calculations for each possible rotation:

Lacerate: 810.4237TPS, 275.8569DPS
FaerieFire: 260.5583TPS, 30.98676DPS
Lacerate+FaerieFire: 924.5206TPS, 292.0879DPS
Swipe: 493.9197TPS, 238.444DPS
Swipe+Lacerate: 738.9257TPS, 415.4065DPS
Swipe+FaerieFire: 630.998TPS, 209.8198DPS
Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 873.4505TPS, 391.7662DPS
Mangle: 542.7553TPS, 227.8433DPS
Mangle+Lacerate: 1157.897TPS, 484.0258DPS
Mangle+FaerieFire: 774.3627TPS, 255.3871DPS
Mangle+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1259.317TPS, 498.4534DPS
Mangle+Swipe: 872.0352TPS, 386.806DPS
Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate: 1111.934TPS, 573.7364DPS
Mangle+Swipe+FaerieFire: 993.8825TPS, 361.3622DPS
Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1233.781TPS, 548.2926DPS
Melee: 430.5038TPS, 207.8294DPS
Melee+Lacerate: 1240.927TPS, 483.6863DPS
Melee+FaerieFire: 691.062TPS, 238.8161DPS
Melee+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1355.024TPS, 499.9173DPS
Melee+Swipe: 924.4235TPS, 446.2734DPS
Melee+Swipe+Lacerate: 1169.429TPS, 623.2359DPS
Melee+Swipe+FaerieFire: 1061.502TPS, 417.6492DPS
Melee+Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1303.954TPS, 599.5956DPS
Melee+Mangle: 973.259TPS, 435.6727DPS
Melee+Mangle+Lacerate: 1588.401TPS, 691.8552DPS
Melee+Mangle+FaerieFire: 1204.866TPS, 463.2165DPS
Melee+Mangle+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1689.82TPS, 706.2828DPS
Melee+Mangle+Swipe: 1302.539TPS, 594.6354DPS
Melee+Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate: 1542.438TPS, 781.5658DPS
Melee+Mangle+Swipe+FaerieFire: 1424.386TPS, 569.1917DPS
Melee+Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 1664.285TPS, 756.122DPS
Maul: 1763.306TPS, 726.2419DPS
Maul+Lacerate: 2573.729TPS, 1002.099DPS
Maul+FaerieFire: 2023.864TPS, 757.2286DPS
Maul+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 2687.826TPS, 1018.33DPS
Maul+Swipe: 2257.226TPS, 964.6859DPS
Maul+Swipe+Lacerate: 2502.231TPS, 1141.648DPS
Maul+Swipe+FaerieFire: 2394.304TPS, 936.0616DPS
Maul+Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 2636.756TPS, 1118.008DPS
Maul+Mangle: 2306.061TPS, 954.0852DPS
Maul+Mangle+Lacerate: 2921.203TPS, 1210.268DPS
Maul+Mangle+FaerieFire: 2537.669TPS, 981.629DPS
Maul+Mangle+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 3022.623TPS, 1224.695DPS
Maul+Mangle+Swipe: 2635.341TPS, 1113.048DPS
Maul+Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate: 2875.24TPS, 1299.978DPS
Maul+Mangle+Swipe+FaerieFire: 2757.188TPS, 1087.604DPS
Maul+Mangle+Swipe+Lacerate+FaerieFire: 2997.087TPS, 1274.534DPS

However, I know that my calculations are not quite right yet for the rotations with both Lacerate and Swipe... It doesn't adjust for the miss rate of Lacerate. It should lacerate, then look 15sec ahead, and choose the 2nd to last unused GCD from there, Lacerate, and Lacerate again if that misses, then go 15sec ahead of whichever of those landed, repeating. Instead, it currently Lacerates, goes 7.5sec ahead, goes to the next unused GCD, Lacerates again, repeat. That makes it Lacerate a little bit more than it needs to, leaving less room for swipes.

Also, Mangle/Trauma is assumed to always be up.

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, that's level 70 gear, on a level 80 character. So crit chance is way low, chance for attack to be avoided is way high. I'll redo this with T7-10 and T7-25 level gear soon.

nightcrowler · 11/03/08, 4:50 AM

I've tested mangle, and yes they have removed the 1.5 multiplier also in live.
FFF uses spell critical strike and probably (should be tested) spell hit. Is spell hit capped at 16%? Can you find out the base spell crit at level 70 and wich buff affect spell hit and spell crit?
The crit damage increase is 50% instead of 100% because it's a spell (I suppose).

spartakos · 11/03/08, 4:59 AM

I assume that the tps/dps values are unbuffed cause 3k max tps seems a bit low.

Selmarix · 11/03/08, 5:22 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

FFF uses spell critical strike and probably (should be tested) spell hit. Is spell hit capped at 16%?

Spell hit cap is 17% against +3 level mobs. Before last patch there was always a minimum 1% spell miss chance which resulted in a cap of 16%. This minimum spell miss chance has been removed.

david0925 · 11/03/08, 7:40 AM

For Feral Fairie Fire:

1.It uses spell hit and crit. Crit will be lower since feral gets a significant amount of crit from agility, which will not benefit spell crit. Hit will be higher due to the fact that spell hit requires less hit rating. However, since spells need 17% to cap versus melee's 9%, 9% melee hit will not cap spell hit.

2.The crit bonus from FFF is 50% because it is a spell. However that is an insignificant contribution to threat, as the majority of FFF's threat (and it should only be used as a threat move) comes from the static number.

Boevis · 11/03/08, 8:41 AM

I'm assuming that's without Berserk's mangle spam, Spartakos. But all things considered at level 70, 3k threat is pretty good.

spartakos · 11/03/08, 9:37 AM

Yes but Astrylian said that only gear is level 70 abilities rank are level 80. The hit and crit values go down but the new ranks and talents should overlapse that, or so I hope.

Prinsesa · 11/03/08, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

For Feral Fairie Fire:

1.It uses spell hit and crit. Crit will be lower since feral gets a significant amount of crit from agility, which will not benefit spell crit. Hit will be higher due to the fact that spell hit requires less hit rating. However, since spells need 17% to cap versus melee's 9%, 9% melee hit will not cap spell hit.

To be precise:

* Being 9% melee hit capped at 70 (142 rating, since Feral Druids have no hit talent) is worth 11.26% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.74% miss rate.

* Being 9% melee hit capped at 80 (296 rating) is worth 11.28% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.71% miss rate.

nightcrowler · 11/03/08, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Prinsesa

To be precise:
* Being 9% melee hit capped at 80 (296 rating) is worth 11.28% spell hit, which should leave FFF with a 5.71% miss rate.

We should also consider buffs that increase spell hit like the moonkin/spriest one. So more properly we will usually have 3% more chance to hit, leaving us with a mere 2.71% chance to miss.

Does spells works like white or yellow melee attacks? (Single or double roll?)

Prinsesa · 11/03/08, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

We should also consider buffs that increase spell hit like the moonkin/spriest one. So more properly we will usually have 3% more chance to hit, leaving us with a mere 2.71% chance to miss.

Does spells works like white or yellow melee attacks? (Single or double roll?)

Yellows are yellows, whether they're abilities/attacks or spells, so yes, they use a double-roll system.

Astrylian · 11/03/08, 11:13 AM

3k TPS does seem low, but that is buffed. It's so low because of the level 70 gear, primarily. It's got only 1.3% hit, 0.8% exp. 26% of all attacks were being avoided in that configuration. Similarly, Agi and Crit rating are lower than they should be at 80; crit chance was only like 24% or something.

It also didn't include the threat from the minor threat sources (thorns, rage gains, clearcasting, etc).

cana · 11/03/08, 1:26 PM

I found an Addon (Ripped) that was (in general) requested some pages ago.

From the description at WoWInterface:

Ripped is a tool that assists players with obtaining and keeping a optimal DPS cycle (or spell rotation / spell cycle / spell priority).

This comes in handy, even for experienced players in stressful situations or where keeping an overview would be hard (noticing that your important debuff has run out, or reapplying a debuff/buff too early etc).

I couldn't test it yet here at work, but from what I read this sounds pretty cool.