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Old 11/05/08, 12:24 PM   #3526
cana
Von Kaiser
 
cana's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Alleria (EU)
I don't really think Blizzard's intention is to fully compensate the mitigation lost.
To some extend they will, but we shouldn't expect our armor to be as high as it could have been with all those
armor pieces equipped pre-nerf.

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Old 11/05/08, 12:26 PM   #3527
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
The AP to armor (assuming a 2.5 or 3->1 conversion from AP to armor) component has the same design flaw that armor itself had, which is that it requires a druid to stack one stat above all others. One could design it so that it was raid independent (AP on your equipment gives the bonus, for example) but that would still make AP (and strength) hugely sought after.

What they should do is a non-trivial change. Do not change the bearform multiplier to some absurd number; this doesn't help scaling with other stats, will arguably imbalance pvp, and will still overvalue PvP gear. Having a high AP->armor conversion will only encourage stacking that stat above all others. Instead, if they have AP->armor at a rate of 1 to 1, have the bear multiplier go up to something like 700% with a deep talent in feral (preferably something like protector of the pack), and give bears parry, it will solve pretty much all scaling issues, solve the problem with PvP gear being more desirous than PvE gear, and keep mitigation levels on par to what they are now.

This is essentially what Kazanity recommended about 2 months ago, by the way.

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Old 11/05/08, 12:45 PM   #3528
Maeltne
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by cana View Post
I don't really think Blizzard's intention is to fully compensate the mitigation lost.
To some extend they will, but we shouldn't expect our armor to be as high as it could have been with all those
armor pieces equipped pre-nerf.
This line direct from GC's post says that they will - or at least it is the current plan.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
We will adjust the bear armor modifiers so that your net mitigation does NOT go down with these changes. Let me repeat: this is not a nerf to Feral armor. It is a change to the amount of armor you get from gear with bonus armor.

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Old 11/05/08, 12:53 PM   #3529
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Duilliath View Post
Similarly, unless Feral Attack Power is specifically discounted (reducing the scaling effect), it'll tie us much more closely to those weapons unless they want to rebuild the entire system by the next expansion or whenever they're aiming to get rid of that FAP thing.
This is why I think it will be Str-->Armor and not AP-->Armor. Though how many +str buffs are in the game other than +stats and +stats%? The former we provide to ourselves the later would be a bit of a hit in 5-man content. Though we could make up for it with a scroll, food and/or a potion.

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Old 11/05/08, 12:57 PM   #3530
Brute
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Ner'zhul
Honestly I hope they just 'keep it simple stupid'. Restore the base bear modifier to 400% (or even bump it a bit) and then have a talent that significantly increases the bonus bear armor. Change Thick Hide to something like 33%/66%/100%. Then either swap Thick Hide positionally with Natural Reaction or drop Thick Hide completely and bake it into some other deep feral talent like Natural Reaction, or King of the Jungle (admittedly im daydreaming on the last point )

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Old 11/05/08, 1:44 PM   #3531
Belzi.ET
Von Kaiser
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Die Arguswacht (EU)
I think they should increase the dire bear armor-multiplier to 450% and make Thick Hide give 20%/40%/60% more armor from leather-items.
Then, I would suggest to switch Thick Hide with Nurturing Instincts.

With those changes Thick Hide becomes a (more or less) deep Feral talent and is out of reach for Arena-Trees.
In addition it would be a small boost for new leveling ferals cause a rejuv and shift into cat would increase the healing a little bit.

Napkin math with the numbers Maeltne posted on the previous page:
Originally Posted by Maeltne View Post
Assumptions:
-Max armor for every slot using ilvl213 or lower gear
-Desired criteria is no armor change while wearing the same gear

Armor from the 8 leather slots: 3326
Armor from rings/trinkets/neck/cloak: 3178
Armor from weapon: 714

Total armor as it would stand, from items: 37317
*snip*
Total armor would be:
x = 3'326 * 5.5 (suggested dire bear form) * 1.6 (3/3 suggested Thick Hide) + 3'178 (rings, trinkets, neck et cetera)
x = 32'446,8 armor

As you can see armor would be decreased a bit, but at the same time this would achieve Blizz' goal to "destroy" armor-trinkets as best-in-slot.

If you go away from armor-trinkets, -necks et cetera you would sit at ~29,3k armor. This comes closer to our plate-wearing tanks (too close?).
Question here is if it's possible to gather enough avoidance-stats within those non-armor-slots to be on par with the other tanks?

Edit: Updated the numbers to work as thought (thanks for Maeltne to point out my messed up numbers)

Last edited by Belzi.ET : 11/05/08 at 7:15 PM. Reason: was too late for proper calculations. now fixed

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Old 11/05/08, 2:03 PM   #3532
Duilliath
Great Tiger
 
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Duilliath
Night Elf Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Maeltne View Post
I suppose another decent option would be to introduce bonus armor on the druid feral tier pieces only.
Won't happen. It'll leave every druid using tier pieces only and nothing else.
They've stated explicitely (though I'll be damned if I can remember where) that tier items won't have additional armour.

Ignorance can be solved with a book. Stupidity requires a shotgun and a shovel.

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Old 11/05/08, 2:06 PM   #3533
Neddie
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Smolderthorn
My overall thoughts on this:

Overall it's a good idea. Picking the highest armor ring/trinket for any slot, regardless of other stats was stupid, and made us hang onto blue trinkets over epics.

On the other hand, they need to make some change to compensate. This means that feral tanks have only 2 mitigation stats for rings, trinkets, necks, etc: stamina and agility. Once you get "enough" stamina, it becomes only about agility. Basically it means that after a certain point, there's no difference between our tank gear and our dps gear. Which truly makes us too overpowered.

If they really want cat-druids to do roughly the same DPS as rogues, mages, warlocks, hunters, warriors, etc. it means a druid can be top 5 on the damage charts when the tank goes down. The hunters FD, the warlocks shatter, the mages inviz, the rogues vanish, and soon the feral druid has threat. Swap to bear form and the druid is tanking as well as the warrior, wearing essentially the same gear he'd be wearing while tanking... no chance of taking a crit, the same armor as he'd have in tanking gear, just probably a bit higher threat and avoidance, and a bit less stamina.

Honestly, I think they need all tanks to care about defense. Make SotF give us a 4% reduction in crits, not 6% and have us make up the rest in defense gear, but at the same time, make it so that defense gives more dodge if your class can't block or parry, and more parry if your class can't block. That way defense is a pretty good stat for druid tanks, and no tank can wear the exact same gear to do super high raid DPS as they do when they're the main tank.

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Old 11/05/08, 2:28 PM   #3534
Maeltne
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by Belzi.ET View Post
Total armor would be:
x = 3'326 * 5.5 (suggested dire bear form) * 1.5 (3/3 suggested Thick Hide) + 3'178 (rings, trinkets, neck et cetera) + 714 (weapon)
x = 31'331,5 armor
You made at least 3 mistakes.
1) * 1.5 is only a 50% increase, for 150% increase you need 2.5
2) You added the weapon armor, which was stated quite clearly as removed
3) Poorly thought out wish lists don't belong here

The actual armor from your method would be: 48910.5

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Old 11/05/08, 2:32 PM   #3535
ajthebest
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Neddie View Post
My overall thoughts on this:

Overall it's a good idea. Picking the highest armor ring/trinket for any slot, regardless of other stats was stupid, and made us hang onto blue trinkets over epics.

On the other hand, they need to make some change to compensate. This means that feral tanks have only 2 mitigation stats for rings, trinkets, necks, etc: stamina and agility. Once you get "enough" stamina, it becomes only about agility. Basically it means that after a certain point, there's no difference between our tank gear and our dps gear. Which truly makes us too overpowered.

If they really want cat-druids to do roughly the same DPS as rogues, mages, warlocks, hunters, warriors, etc. it means a druid can be top 5 on the damage charts when the tank goes down. The hunters FD, the warlocks shatter, the mages inviz, the rogues vanish, and soon the feral druid has threat. Swap to bear form and the druid is tanking as well as the warrior, wearing essentially the same gear he'd be wearing while tanking... no chance of taking a crit, the same armor as he'd have in tanking gear, just probably a bit higher threat and avoidance, and a bit less stamina.

Honestly, I think they need all tanks to care about defense. Make SotF give us a 4% reduction in crits, not 6% and have us make up the rest in defense gear, but at the same time, make it so that defense gives more dodge if your class can't block or parry, and more parry if your class can't block. That way defense is a pretty good stat for druid tanks, and no tank can wear the exact same gear to do super high raid DPS as they do when they're the main tank.

I can't say I completely agree with you. DPS specs and Tanking specs differ enough that you can't do both to your best. Also we are not meant to have the same DPS as rogues, mages, locks, and hunters. Those four classes are supposedly "pure classes" and according to GC they will always be the best unless a hybrid with exponential skill comes along and takes over.

As far as the two stat thing goes, I agree (sort of). This won't be overpowered for us, but in fact would kill us in the future content patches. Once we have the <threshold> hp then we would only stack agility which has wicked diminishing returns. At one point we might consider gemming for defense, but that just proves how bad we will have it. Agility / dodge would be so bad that we would have to resort to gemming defense.

I honestly believe that we need to keep the multiplier the same, or change it in a deep feral talent to stop resto ownage in pvp. I also feel that if we were given parry, it would help feral druids look to the future and actually want upgrades. I would like to think believe that str -> armor conversion would be a good thing, but the reality is the only place we get str now is from jewellery, which wouldn't be enough unless we have huge conversion numbers, which might be too OP later in the game and pigeon holes us into making str the new "thing" (like armor was).

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Old 11/05/08, 2:33 PM   #3536
hlidskialf
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kirin Tor
I also am looking forward to not being shackled to one specific trinket/ring with armour. As for compensation, it's been mentioned to have AP/Str with some modifier being converted to an armour value. Seeing as one of our problems is too few stats to focus on, why not give us an armour value based on ALL our stats? Add it to a deep feral talent like Heart of the Wild if there's concerns re: restos and arena.

Granted, we'd still run into the situation were buffs make a significant difference, but without a modifier, you'd not notice a large change in mitigation if you lose a single stat buff during a fight. It'd also have the side effect of sparking some further interest in a broader range of item drops.

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Old 11/05/08, 2:52 PM   #3537
Pharmacon
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Rogue
 
Scilla
We won't get parry. At least I would kind of hope we didn't. That's a very boring solution to our problems right now. Give us parry and we're a Death Knight with different threat building attacks. I never understood the fact that mobs that aren't wielding some sort of weapon could parry anyways (and being in form should negate that we carry a weapon as it isn't visible).

I do agree with some of the points that Str or AP -> Armor would be an awkward fix though. But we already get some armor from Agi and allowing it to do more would be too much from one attribute, so something like AP -> Armor makes at least some sense as we are tanking in DPS gear with tank gems/enchants.

Baking in another armor modifier into PotP or even KoJ won't happen either unless it is at the expense of something else as then those talent points become to over budget. If it goes into PotP it would need to replace the AP modifier, but would still be over budget as that is more of an addon to the % damage reduction. If added to KoJ it would need to replace the % damage increase, but that would make it just another mandatory talent to take which we already have a fair number of.

We made it through BC on green armor. That screws up item budget so I'm glad that won't be coming back. We need some sort of PvE stat that will increase our mitigation so we are not relying on PvP items for PvE.

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Old 11/05/08, 3:06 PM   #3538
 Abradix
Bald Bull
 
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Kyral
Orc Warrior
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Pharmacon View Post
We need some sort of PvE stat that will increase our mitigation so we are not relying on PvP items for PvE.
This actually fixed the PvP gear problem, because just as cloaks, the way our armor will be calculated is (ilevel armor value * Bear_Modifier)+extra bonus armor, meaning that the large armor gain from PvP gear will be gone and that pretty much removes the desire to use the PvP gear for PvE. Regarding strength -> Armor instead of AP -> Armor, keep in mind we barely get strength on our gear, our tiered gear has no strength, the rogue leather doesn't, the only pieces with strength are tanking jewelry.

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Old 11/05/08, 3:23 PM   #3539
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by Abradix View Post
This actually fixed the PvP gear problem, because just as cloaks, the way our armor will be calculated is (ilevel armor value * Bear_Modifier)+extra bonus armor, meaning that the large armor gain from PvP gear will be gone and that pretty much removes the desire to use the PvP gear for PvE. Regarding strength -> Armor instead of AP -> Armor, keep in mind we barely get strength on our gear, our tiered gear has no strength, the rogue leather doesn't, the only pieces with strength are tanking jewelry.
The new PVP gear at 80 doesn't have bonus armor. The reason the new PVP gear is better or equal to the PVE gear is it has more stam and generally equal agility. All you lose is generally some crit rating and attack power. Adding a AP -> Something conversion would solve this problem since it would make the PVP gear worse for both threat and mitigation.

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Old 11/05/08, 3:29 PM   #3540
ajthebest
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Abradix View Post
This actually fixed the PvP gear problem, because just as cloaks, the way our armor will be calculated is (ilevel armor value * Bear_Modifier)+extra bonus armor, meaning that the large armor gain from PvP gear will be gone and that pretty much removes the desire to use the PvP gear for PvE. Regarding strength -> Armor instead of AP -> Armor, keep in mind we barely get strength on our gear, our tiered gear has no strength, the rogue leather doesn't, the only pieces with strength are tanking jewelry.

I can't remember which forum I read this one, but someone suggested that armor gained from agility should be affected by the bear modifier. This would help us bare taking the dps gear we are being forced to take. The only problem I saw with this suggestion was that we are pretty much replacing bonus armor with agility. We would start drooling over agility rather than armor.

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