I completely agree with this. It's why I enjoy playing my feral over my previous one-role class. It's also why I / We get raid spots. It is early days, and perhaps lots of trimming is still to be done.

You can't honestly believe that all of us fulfil the same roles though. For exmaple in my previous guild, since we raided with 2 ferals, I was cat form around 95% of the time. In my current guild, since we run with 1, I am bear form 95% of the time. There are also many roles somewhere inbetween on this spectrum. I am of the opinion that one should be able to weight their gear (already possible) and their talents to suit.

Regardless of anything, druids will be the ONLY (not sure about DK's?) class who can fulfil 2 roles in one raid. In all seriousness, we do not know what type of encounters we'll face in WOTLK yet and that will have an influence on our playstyle and talent choices.

With all the damage buffs we're getting, ie Tigers Fury, Savage Roar, Mangle affecting Maul et al. there were a few in this thread worried about impending nerfs. Perhaps not being able to be 100% awesome at both bear and kitty is the way to control that?

That being said, Im going to run with something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft for my PVE tanking build.

Maybe it is just me, but the old Primal Tenacity was nearly worthless and the new version is worst. Not sure what, if any, benefit it provides. Unless, of course, boss mobs start stunning us every 30s for 6s. Then, the "while stunned" damage reduction might be worth considering.

At this point, I'm trying to decide if I can give up Intensity. I've never lived without it, so I'm not sure how much I depend on the "instant 10 rage". FWIW, is that 10 more rage than normal Enrage? Or do you just get 10 of the enrage rage up front when you have this talent? If it is the later, I can probably live without it. Just need to wait an extra second before pulling. If it is the former, well that extra 10 rage is real nice during a pull.

I believe its 10 extra rage, not just 10 rage up front. The only real problem I have with the talent tree at the moment is that infected wounds might be worthwhile to take for PvE if its usuable on bosses. In that case I'd have a problem fitting in all the talents, though removing 5 talents from natural shapeshifter/master shapeshifter allows a fair bit of leeway. Really 2-3 more points would be all I really need, so merging or reducing some of the talents, even just a little, would probably provide enough to get all the necessary tanking and dps talents. I think reducing predatory strikes to a 3 point talent (with the same effect) would be the simplest solution.

It's 10 extra rage

Once I tried to raid without intensify and it's a nightmare. Going into bear form and wating 3 seconds before you can mangle is quite a pain when you are doing timed event ZA or saving someones life. It takes a while to get used to it.

I would probably raid with this spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft , 10 expertise improves threat generating alot, which seems to be the new focus on wrath and it's alot more usefull than primal tenacity. Maybe dropping predatory instincts for master shapeshifter, but i think it's not worth it

I left it since we can skill Nurturing Instinct and put the last point in Natures Grasp for PVP and i barely miss it. If you need rage you simply have to time your Enrage so that you have enough rage before the pull or simply wait until your first white hit. After that the 3 talent points in Intensity are worth nothing. If you have rage problems you can simply wear more dmg gear.

They are currently bugged, Infected Wounds and Predatory Instincts are exchanged and they are not up to date.

I am trying to calculate what dmg would Rake have to deliver in order to be viable in our dps rotation. I think it simply needs to do more damage than Shred, otherwise why include it in our damage cycles?

But i am not able to find out what is the base damage for Shred formula ("Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 743 to the target."). I expect it is "paw base damage" + ATP modification, but what is "paw damage"?

Isn't it just damage range shown in character screen? That multiplied by 2,25 and then 743 added on top of that.

Just found this:

Idol of Perspicacious Attacks - Items - WOWDB

Idol of Perspicacious Attacks
Binds when picked up
Unique
Relic Idol
Requires Level 74
Equip: Increases the damage dealt by your Maul ability by 120 and Swipe ability by 24.

IMHO swipe should change to hitting 5 targets, and also apply infected wounds.

Looking at Wowhead;

"Rake the target for [AP / 100 + 90] bleed damage and an additional [138 + AP * 0.06] damage over 9 sec. Awards 1 combo point."

So with about 2000 attack power,

2000/100+90=110('Initial' damage)
138+2000*0.06=258(DoT)

Correct me if i'm wrong.

The damage multiplier would have to be greatly increased for it to be viable.

EDIT: I was just using 2000 for the sake of the example, but thanks for the correction.(If anything, it shows how poorly rake scales, DOUBLE the attack power and only 120 more damage?!)

2000? Ferals at level 70 have 4000+ attack power, so that would be 130 instant and 378 bleed damage. Still not beefy enough to muscle out Shred (or even Mangle), but it does get the Mangle bonus (as well as Trauma, which Shred does not). It's also boosted by Savage Fury; with Mangle, Savage Fury and Trauma all up it's getting +30%, +30% and +20%. Does anyone know if these are additive or multiplicative?

If additive: 914 damage, ignores armor; 1171 on a crit or so.

If multiplicative: 1030 damage, 1320 or so on a crit.

Rake may also be made better, depending on cycle time, because of its effect on Shred via Rend and Tear. If cycles are too long to keep Rip up constantly, a Rake to ensure the target is bled may be a DPS increase.

Would it be too powerful to simply increase the multiplier?, so instead of *0.06 increase it to 0.1-5?
(In response to Ja7us' post)