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Old 07/23/08, 11:16 AM   #391
angi
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kil'Jaeden (EU)
Originally Posted by Valerian View Post
Remember armor penetration has increasing returns as the mobs armor gets lower (i.e., as you get increased armor penetration). Were you testing the values against current boss armor? Remember those gems are meant to be used against mobs that are higher than level 70 (probably level 83 bosses). Their armor will be significantly higher than current raid boss armor to keep mitigation roughly constant I'd guess. So it will take significantly more ArP to get to the point where the mobs armor is so low that ArP becomes THE stat to have.
Yes but i tested it with lvl 70 buffs like sunder armor and cor and even with 15 or 17% armor mitigation the armor pen gem was ahead of the other gems (compared to 20exp,20hit,20agi and 20str). (Near the armor pen cap the value was 2x-3x, at 15% mitigation around x1.2).
We don`t know about lvl80 boss armors now, but we can assume that cor/sunder armor etc. will scale with the new ranks to counter this.

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Old 07/23/08, 11:16 AM   #392
Valerian
King Hippo
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Blackhand
Originally Posted by Yaelle View Post
I'm confused every time I read this.
If increasing armor increases your time to live linear (from a Tankbear perspective), should not also the benefit of ArP increase time until death in a linear fashion? And thus more ArP have linear returns.
Yeah I made the same argument at one point. However, the same metrics are not being used to determine tank life span compared to DPS. We generally look at time to live for tanks and in this case armor has linear returns. We do not generally look at time to live for bosses in terms of our output dps. Also note, even if we did, ArP would be non-increasing returns but every OTHER DPS stat would have diminishing returns. Currently we see our DPS stats as non-increasing returns and thus ArP has increasing returns.

Yes but i tested it with lvl 70 buffs like sunder armor and cor and even with 15 or 17% armor mitigation the armor pen gem was ahead of the other gems (compared to 20exp,20hit,20agi and 20str). (Near the armor pen cap the value was 2x-3x, at 15% mitigation around x1.2).
We don`t know about lvl80 boss armors now, but we can assume that cor/sunder armor etc. will scale with the new ranks to counter this.
But the gems themselves have MORE ArP than a level 70 ArP gem would. Since ArP has increasing returns this is more noticeable. Even now its possible, with enough ArP to get to a point where it is more valuable than Agi. It just requires too much at the moment for it to be feasible. If ArP gems are available they may in fact be the best gems to have for that slot, I won't deny that, but its also possible the armor formula changes drastically again making bosses have significantly MORE armor to get rid of, even after new Sunder/CoR are applied.

Last edited by Valerian : 07/23/08 at 11:22 AM.

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Old 07/23/08, 11:43 AM   #393
Snarley
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Has anyone in beta had the pleasure of experiencing the resto talent Replenish while in cat / bear form?...

Replenish (3/3):
Your Rejuvenation and Flourish spells has a 15% chance to restore 10 Energy, 4 Rage, 2% Mana or 10 Runic Power per tick.

I know at one point i saw something similar on a hunter ability. I believe it had to do with the hunter giving the same rage, energy, mana and runic power back to the group after a crit.

Sounds like an amazing thing to have on top of all the new energy regen / reduction we are getting in wrath.

Last edited by Snarley : 07/23/08 at 11:47 AM. Reason: Spelling

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Old 07/23/08, 12:56 PM   #394
wuffles
Bald Bull
 
wuffles's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
The hunter talent you're thinking of is Hunting Party, and yes at 5/5 (100% chance) its the same bonus for the entire group (10 energy/runic power, 4 rage, or 2% mana every 8sec on crit). Its a deep survival talent, giving one more reason to bring a hunter of that spec to the raid.

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Old 07/23/08, 12:59 PM   #395
Zhoreilh
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Khaz Modan (EU)
What does everyone think of "Rend and Tear" -talent? It doesn't seem that great to me(The reason for this maybe that I mostly tank, only sometimes doing DPS during trash), but most builds I've seen seem to 5/5 it. The bonus to shred damage seems to be the only important part of the talent.
10% bonus to shred for 5 points is not that good. It may even be very weak, if our white damage ratio increases. And with 20% haste from WF, more AP, and maybe off-hand attack in dire cats, It will probably increase.

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Old 07/23/08, 1:27 PM   #396
Malazaar
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gul'dan (EU)
Originally Posted by Zhoreilh View Post
10% bonus to shred for 5 points is not that good. It may even be very weak, if our white damage ratio increases. And with 20% haste from WF, more AP, and maybe off-hand attack in dire cats, It will probably increase.
It's not that good (~ 0.6-0.7% dps increase per point) but it only has to compete with things like savage fury (~ 0.5-0.6% dps increase per point and no benefit in bear form) or utility talents like nurturing instincts or brutal impact.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:09 PM   #397
Promethius
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Bonechewer
Does anyone else think that Savage Fury should just be removed and rolled into the base abilities? No self respecting feral uses Claw, the scaling for Rake is lackluster even considering 30% armor mitigation, Trauma and needing a bleed for Rend and Tear, and Mangle (Cat) is used once every 12 sec in pve with maybe double the frequency at best in pvp.

I remember there being a superior version of Thick Hide higher up in the feral tree back in the alpha that reduced spell damage taken. If Savage Fury were to be removed, it might make sense to drop Sharpened Claws and Primal Fury one tier down, move Thick Hide to Savage Fury's old talent location and alter it to the Reinforced Hide talent. This prevents easy access of resto and balance specs to free spell mitigation, lessens the margin ferals have at being the worst at tanking against magical damage and frees two talent points in a bloated tree.

Outside of an implied strongest offtank role, it's a bit difficult to discern developer intent when it comes to druid tanking. We're still in the dark about bear form threat modifier being 130% or 145%. Considering the strength of current druid threat, 30% extra damage on Maul from Mangle may be what devs think suffices opposed to reworking threat modifiers. The 15% swipe damage on Feral Instinct would then just be maintaining our old aoe threat but increased damage.

On that tangent, with warriors gaining Shockwave and Thunderclap scaling, druids appear to be at the tail end of aoe tanking. Unless it's intended that druids specialize at tanking three mobs very well, and drop significantly in effectiveness as that number is increased, it might be prudent to increase Swipe targets through an existing talent. Having Shredding Attacks or Imp LotP increase targets affected by Swipe by 1/2 could lessen the gap in aoe tanking viability among the tanks.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:20 PM   #398
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Outside of an implied strongest offtank role, it's a bit difficult to discern developer intent when it comes to druid tanking. We're still in the dark about bear form threat modifier being 130% or 145%
According to the beta forums, it's 145%. Just wasn't reported.

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Old 07/23/08, 2:47 PM   #399
Snarley
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
On that tangent, with warriors gaining Shockwave and Thunderclap scaling, druids appear to be at the tail end of aoe tanking. Unless it's intended that druids specialize at tanking three mobs very well, and drop significantly in effectiveness as that number is increased, it might be prudent to increase Swipe targets through an existing talent. Having Shredding Attacks or Imp LotP increase targets affected by Swipe by 1/2 could lessen the gap in aoe tanking viability among the tanks.
If the Death Knight starting area is any precursor to what is to come in terms of PvE content (talking about the part where there is a massive amount of scourge on the screen). With every class getting at least some form of AoE it seems like it plays right into the lore that we will see vast hordes of scrouge in multiple PvE encounters deeper into the content.

Swipe still only affecting three targets seems pretty dismal for us to handle large scale multiple mob encounters.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:19 PM   #400
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
From blue posts in the druid wotlk forum:
We have no plans to implement a "Dire Cat" form at this time. "Dire Bear" exists for the sole purpose of upgrading the Feral Druid's armor value to match the Warrior/Paladin etc. (Druids get no shield)

We do, however, intend to allow Druids to be able to use items and enchants with procs in forms, which I believe will work in the next beta build (don't hold me to it though).
And
I think what Kalgan meant was that we intend to do different texture variances for Druid forms, including Cat form. Which is true, though not sure how soon we're going to get that. They may come from a repeatable quest, or through inscription.
That's a real shame.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:25 PM   #401
Merple
King Hippo
 
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Merple
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Mikari View Post
We do, however, intend to allow Druids to be able to use items and enchants with procs in forms
It would be stupid not to. As currently implemented, players currently use and rely on the use of items by way of a stupid and borderline exploit macro which doesn't fit with the spirit of forms.

Enchants, I'm honestly surprised, but quite excited. Good change.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:33 PM   #402
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
Interestingly enough I'd still use healing pots as they're done now instead of not switching because they effectively gain 40% more health back per pot that way. Unless it's impossible to do so for some reason. It should be doable; just have to add the cancel form part to the beginning of the macro.

Cat form it wouldn't matter of course, but usually you want to shift in cat form anyway. So that's kind of a wash.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:40 PM   #403
Merple
King Hippo
 
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Merple
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by kalbear View Post
Interestingly enough I'd still use healing pots as they're done now instead of not switching because they effectively gain 40% more health back per pot that way. Unless it's impossible to do so for some reason. It should be doable; just have to add the cancel form part to the beginning of the macro.

Cat form it wouldn't matter of course, but usually you want to shift in cat form anyway. So that's kind of a wash.
Using potions in forms takes the potion off of the GCD, which can be critical. I agree that when it's convenient, getting the additional 40% health is nice, but I've been in many situations where I'm mashing my pot/HS key and getting caught in the GCD.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:43 PM   #404
torand
Glass Joe
 
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Troll Shaman
 
Uther
If they actually do remove crushing blows, it seems to me that druids will be the new *best* single target tanks of end-game raids. With the scaling of strength to SBV changing for warriors and pallies, they will once again be based on mitigating a static number of damage off of every strike, while bear tanks will still have massively more armor to mitigate a percentage of each strike. Without crushing blows as a factor that warriors can avoid that bears can't, druids will be taking less damage from the hardest hitting mobs.

Warriors also seem to be moving toward more spikey damage since they cannot ensure a block of every attack without stacking SBR, or Defense. If things go in the direction they look to be going right now, Warriors seem like inferior tanks to Druids against anything that does not do targeted magic damage.

I think warrior threat will catch up with (Hopefully not surpass) Druid threat on a single target with the changes to strength as a mitigation stat for them, but consistent mitigation it would seem is moving toward Druids.

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Old 07/23/08, 3:53 PM   #405
Merple
King Hippo
 
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Merple
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Assuming things remain similar to TBC, Druid tanks will be superior tanks during the early raid game. This mirrors the beginning of TBC, and this is due to the significant returns of armour early in the game.

We are however assuming that armour values for druid gear stay high. With the removal of crushing blows and the homogenization of gear, we may see druid armour come much closer in line with that of plate + shield. So long as our overall avoidance (by way of agility scaling and dodge) stays in line with warriors, paladins and death knights, the tanking returns should remain similar. This also allows us to make more direct use of consumables and buffs that increase armour value, such as Ironshields and Inspiration - one of the major factors in the relative dip in comparative quality of druid tanks near the end of SWP.

Due to the inclusion of armour on trinkets, rings and amulets, we should maintain something of an armour lead simply based on our armour modifier, but it may not be anywhere near as pronounced as it is currently.

To be honest, universal leather homogenization is the single most worrying issue for me going into WotLK. We'll see how it plays out.

-In our country, any CBC reporter can dream of becoming head of state.

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