Glad to see the changes, but there goes some more talent points I planned to skip...It's getting more and more difficult for me to justify any points in rend and tear. Why is a mediocre talent so far into the tree again?
Well hopefully they'll butcher a few more talents so it's possible to actually make a decent spec without having to leave out a few pretty useful talents, I'm just not seeing how you can fit it all in, compared to the warrior prot tree it's quite messy and nowhere even close to those earlier claims of having to choose between cat and bear.
Judging by the changes to druid threat mechanics, and taking into account that maul now will get extra damage out of when mangle is up and that rend and tear will mean maul gets extra damage on a bleeding target, it seems that Blizzard means for Maul to be a big part of the feral tanking rotation. With the reduced cool down of mangle through talents and the fact we get 2 new ranks of lacerate..
Something along the lines of mangle, lacerate, lacerate, mangle, lacerate, lacerate, maul repeat.
Savage Roar is 33% on my client. I linked the skill to someone else who said he reads 25% but when using it it applies the 33% in the char window stats. I didnt make enough tests to see if its just a consistent display bug.
That's a bug because Improved Mark of the Wild is also affecting Savage Roar. Also, if you had the Imp. Mark talent when you learned Savage Roar, it will buff it double in some cases. Beef has details.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
Omen of Clarity now only procs from spells or auto attack.
Helps allow it to scale better with haste in Cat but this will be less enjoyable in Bear without some compensation.
Rend and Tear really feels like cat talent to me right now. Yes, it will give maul some extra damage/threat, but we'll get double that from Savage Fury now (without any situational requirements) and I expect that the "causes a high amount of threat" will mean a static threat value and the extra Maul damage won't be as important relatively (I doubt they'll go with a threat multiplier on Maul again seeing how it turned out last time).
I don't really have a problem with OoC only proccing from auto-attacks. It'll mean we won't get free swings in situations where we are queuing up Maul, but these are normally high rage situations where free swings aren't really important. This of course might change depending on how high threat Maul is comparatively to other skills, but I expect we'll follow about the same tanking pattern as now.
Rend and Tear really feels like cat talent to me right now. Yes, it will give maul some extra damage/threat, but we'll get double that from Savage Fury now (without any situational requirements) and I expect that the "causes a high amount of threat" will mean a static threat value and the extra Maul damage won't be as important relatively (I doubt they'll go with a threat multiplier on Maul again seeing how it turned out last time).
I don't really have a problem with OoC only proccing from auto-attacks. It'll mean we won't get free swings in situations where we are queuing up Maul, but these are normally high rage situations where free swings aren't really important. This of course might change depending on how high threat Maul is comparatively to other skills, but I expect we'll follow about the same tanking pattern as now.
There is precedent (notably, windfury totem) for on-next-swing abilities to be counted as auto-attacks for the purpose of procs. I believe he was referring to the fact that you no longer get 3 chances to proc OOC per swipe.
Edit: From MMO-Champion:
They're a fair sight better for mitigation than anything we have now, that's for sure.
There is precedent (notably, windfury totem) for on-next-swing abilities to be counted as auto-attacks for the purpose of procs. I believe he was referring to the fact that you no longer get 3 chances to proc OOC per swipe.
Probably had to be done to be able to give us Enchants/Procs in forms.
Rend and Tear really feels like cat talent to me right now. Yes, it will give maul some extra damage/threat, but we'll get double that from Savage Fury now (without any situational requirements)
The way I see it, the changes to Savage Fury neutered Rend and Tear; thereby, giving us 3 more talent points. Now I can even take 1/3 IW and still get 3/3 in Intensity (though I might try to live without it and pickup ILotP and 2/3 IW).
That highly depends on your priorities - if you don't need IW and iLotP it is an alternative to get R&T, it WILL increase cat damage and bear threat, just not by as much as other talents.
With the recent changes to the big 3 warrior abilities all tanks have a comparable shield wall besides druids.
Warriors - Shield Wall. 5min cooldown that reduces damage taken by 50% for 12 seconds.
Paladin - Divine Protection. 5min cooldown that reduces damage taken by 50% for 12 seconds but increases attack speed by 50%.
Deathknight - Icebound Fortitude. 1min cooldown that reduces damage taken by 50% and provides stun immunity for 12 seconds.
I think it's pretty obvious that Blizzard considers this kind of reactive skill to be too powerful for only one tank to have and druids will probably get something similar. The straightforward change would be to finally allow barkskin in feral forms with increased cooldown and probably effectiveness.
They will probably do that, because barkskin, with the recent changes to spellpushback, isn't as needed as it was before :>
Barkskin is still very useful to PvE resto. It can be cast in tree form and the 20% damage reduction is very nice if you know you'll be taking some damage soon.
Judging by the changes to druid threat mechanics, and taking into account that maul now will get extra damage out of when mangle is up and that rend and tear will mean maul gets extra damage on a bleeding target, it seems that Blizzard means for Maul to be a big part of the feral tanking rotation. With the reduced cool down of mangle through talents and the fact we get 2 new ranks of lacerate..
Something along the lines of mangle, lacerate, lacerate, mangle, lacerate, lacerate, maul repeat.
sorry but you must be bad.
if you were not already using maul every time it is up you are bad. it does not need to be put into rotation, it is an on next hit effect. so pro druids have these 2 macros:
/cast swipe
/cast maul
/cast lacerate
/cast maul
spam those and mangle every CD for maximum threat. If you have good gear swipe is always better, even on one mob.
The talents as they are now are going to increase our already retardedly high threat by alot. I do a constant 1.9k TPS while raiding in sunwell gear. I just don't see how they are going to leave some of the stuff the way it is.
They will probably do that, because barkskin, with the recent changes to spellpushback, isn't as needed as it was before :>
The pushback changes are nice but pve ferals want to use barkskin in forms for the damage reduction not the pushback elimination. With every other tanking class getting a 50% reduction on a one per fight cooldown it seems to suggest druids will get something similar.
I don't really have a problem with OoC only proccing from auto-attacks. It'll mean we won't get free swings in situations where we are queuing up Maul, but these are normally high rage situations where free swings aren't really important. This of course might change depending on how high threat Maul is comparatively to other skills, but I expect we'll follow about the same tanking pattern as now.
This is wrong. Maul can proc Omen of Clarity -- just tested it with multiple instances -- as if it were a white attack.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
This is wrong. Maul can proc Omen of Clarity -- just tested it with multiple instances -- as if it were a white attack.
good good. makes sense since it is essentially a boosted / replaced white attack.
with regards to shield wall, recklessness etc. unless they tone down recklessness to just a few attacks id be a bit annoyed, but i can see barkskin being castable in forms with 25%+ damage reduction for 10 seconds on a minute reduction, maybe 2. might well be all we have if we're going to take a big slice of magic damage =(
What you're essentially asking for is to be a terrible choice for a progression-oriented raid group. That is exactly what they have said they will not be pursuing with the feral tree.
Could you elaborate a bit? I find that I am incredibly useful in a progression group. If a trash pull goes bad, I can pick up a loose mob, add some healing to the tank, and with recent changes, provide a fair bit of control. To me, I'm there BECAUSE we're learning.
Granted, my guild isn't full-on into T6 yet, so if it works different there then I stand corrected, but from everything I've done thus far, I've been a great use to help learn stuff.
Granted, my guild isn't full-on into T6 yet, so if it works different there then I stand corrected, but from everything I've done thus far, I've been a great use to help learn stuff.
(on progression)
If you're sup-par dps, but you can pick up a loose mob on trash, you will be sat on bosses if they don't need you tanking.
If you're sub-par tanking AND dps, you won't have a slot in a progression guild.
Battle rez and innervate are bad reasons to justify a slot in a raid, because that is assuming you can take a less-powerful class and make up for a rogue/warlock/mage being dumb and a healer not being mana efficient.
Why we, currently, don't have parry has been one of those long unanswered questions and the possibility of us seeing it in WotLK has been brought up here already.
Are we seeing a glimpse of that dream finally becoming a reality ?
Needless to say, i'll explode in laughter if this ends up to be meant specifically for a pvp rogue but hey ... stranger things have happened before.
I've seen a lot of discussion in this thread about whose gear we're going to be cadging from, but one thing that I've heard brought up in regards to WotLK itemization hasn't really been mentioned that I noticed (apologies if I missed it). Obviously we don't have any real info yet, so we're basing discussion on what we do know, but from what I'd heard most major drops from the 10 and 25 man progression dungeons are going to have 'item normalization' on them, ie: their stats will be set by the class of the person who gets them, rather like the tier gear but more pervasive. On the one hand, I think this will help avoid the question of 'rogue leather with stats we don't need' (and possibly even 'tanking rings with block value'), on the other hand, given season 2 feral pvp gear I don't trust Blizzards itemization at all. =p Also, while it wouldn't quite leave us waiting for tier gear, the overall effect is the same. I dunno. Honestly, I think someone should make a Rawr model updated as information becomes available and send it to Blizzard. They clearly can't do math on their own.
Also, in regards to the earlier discussion about cat dps, I agree that there's no need for it to match rogues (although if they split the tree enough I see no reason it shouldn't reach the 95% someone suggested earlier). Likewise I agree that rogues will whine to high heaven again if it's that close. Screw the rogues. They can whine all they want about not having raid buffs, but they also get an ass-ton of combat abilities on top of their high dps. Honestly, though, 95%, 90% whatever, it needs to be rebalanced to be within a reasonable range. Not the 60% it is now. I know plenty of people want to stay Tank/off-dps, and I can understand that. They can deal with being 60% of a rogues damage then. I really like the idea of being able to kitty dps effectively. It's what drew me to play a druid. Is that stupid from a numbers standpoint? Yes, probably. However, I think it's pretty reasonable from both an aesthetic and gameplay standpoint. I enjoy the gameplay of kitty dps, and I just plain like the idea. I'm not saying Blizzard needs to bow to my personal whims, but I'm clearly not the only one. Let's face it, being a shapeshifter and eating mobs faces is fun. Heck, they even gave it to Warlocks now with Demon Form.
Why we, currently, don't have parry has been one of those long unanswered questions and the possibility of us seeing it in WotLK has been brought up here already.
Are we seeing a glimpse of that dream finally becoming a reality ?
Needless to say, i'll explode in laughter if this ends up to be meant specifically for a pvp rogue but hey ... stranger things have happened before.
Heh... These and the Prot Warrior talent that adds 5% dodge and Rogues are already well on their way to become avoidance tanks again.
We still would like all 4 tanks to have their own niche, and unless we change something down the road, the design is still for the warrior to be the best tank for single bosses that hit hard for physical damage (which to be honest, has tended to be most of them so far).
Assuming that Paladins will still be kings of tanking many mobs at once, and Death Knights will be ahead of the pack on encounters where magic damage is prevalent, I can't help but wonder what is left for Ferals. Threat on DPS race fights? (I don't consider offtanking trash/boss adds, then shifting out for mediocre dps to be a niche.)
Perhaps someone in beta could ask the devs in which kind of encounters they feel the Feral will be the best tanking choice? Given the statement about warriors above, I'd really like to hear some kind of similar mission statement for Feral tanks.
I really have to /boggle when Druids talk about parry as some kind of holy grail. Aside from the slight haste on next swing, it's the same exact as dodge from a defensive point of view. It's actually worse if you consider the rating requirement differences. Why is parry so exciting? What if you took 20% of your current dodge, set it aside and pretended it was called "parry" and then reduced your actual dodge by 20%. How does that make us better in any way?
Itemization? Just so they can stack different forms of avoidance on 1 item? Nup, we already do that with Agi and dodge rating. More returns from Defense? We are getting 6% crit reduction from talents in WotLK. The only thing it might conceivably do is make some of the shared slot items better than they otherwise would be.
=/
edit:
Originally Posted by Edgeworth
Perhaps someone in beta could ask the devs in which kind of encounters they feel the Feral will be the best tanking choice? Given the statement about warriors above, I'd really like to hear some kind of similar mission statement for Feral tanks.
That's definitely a question worth asking.
Also, Maim is now our Kick on bosses:
* Maim now interrupts the victim's spellcasting for 3 seconds.
It's unclear whether the stun effect remains, but at least the interrupt should work on bosses like the S3/S4 glove bonus.
08/08/08, 9:52 PM
