Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 49

ionasej · 08/22/08, 1:37 PM

With this change and the PvP Sets I really hope that they go for HotW 25% of your STA = INT

Valerian · 08/22/08, 2:04 PM

They needed something to further reduce shifting costs or increase mana anyways. The minor bit you got from the "hybrid" gear was never really sufficient and it just reduced the other stats on the gear. A low tier feral talent to further reduce shapeshifting costs is probably the best solution to this without unbalancing anything else.

loos · 08/22/08, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

Confirmed, this is happening for me too. Lets hope this is intended, that's a huge buff for PvP, and all powershifting. And it makes Powershifting really easy to model; each powershift is just a spell that costs X mana, 1.5sec GCD, and -40 energy cost.

EDIT: Important note, it does not work that way for Bear rage. That says to me that it's not just an accidental side-effect of enabling items in forms or something.

If you gain energy while not in forms, why don't you start with 100 energy the first time you shift into kitty (or is that what's happening)? If not, what starts this out-of-form energy regen?

• Astrylian · 08/22/08, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by loos

If you gain energy while not in forms, why don't you start with 100 energy the first time you shift into kitty (or is that what's happening)?

That's what's happening.

Bold · 08/22/08, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by unitsinc

Feral tanking and Itemization:
I totally get this. Druids won't be popular tanks if everyone knows them as the OOM tank. When I say "big health pool" I'm not talking about 30% more than a warrior, and I'm not even sure that's the route we'll go. But since the "big health" idea generates a lot of discussion, I'll walk you through our thought process.

Druids are going to have a harder time hitting the armor cap in Lich King largely because there is no leather tanking gear, and virtually no bonus armor at all (except on a few pieces like rings and necks). Now we can't just make druids do without armor, or they won't compete with other tanks. We can't just bake the armor into Dire Bear Form though, or we risk making resto druids even better in PvP. So when I have mentioned big health pools, that is partially because we're trying to solve the problem where druids need armor but can't get it. Big health is a way to do with less armor, but it's not a total fix for the situation, it definitely has drawbacks, and it doesn't mean 30% more health and 30% less armor. If I had to guess, all of the tanks will end up having pretty similar endgame stats, minus obvious things like block.

Something which may make "Big Health" tanking more viable in Wrath is the removal of downranking. I would expect to see an increase in overhealing on traditional tanks, since the only safe way to keep them up is to provide a constant heal/sec. High health, lower mitigation could provide some leeway here. Depending on how Blizzard addresses the mana issues that will arise from removing downranking for healers, Druid tanks may see a decrease in overhealing that would make up for their higher incoming damage. Thoughts?

Soultrigger · 08/22/08, 2:39 PM

Since with the "energy change" we don´t lose anymore our burst damage potential...

what if there is a new talent, something as: your shapeshifts now cost no mana, but you cant heal either. (lol)

Mara · 08/22/08, 2:59 PM

Further proof that our specialized druid gear sets (arena here, but likely to extend to tier gear also) will likely NOT have bonus armor:

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

TheNameLessOne · 08/22/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mara

Further proof that our specialized druid gear sets (arena here, but likely to extend to tier gear also) will likely NOT have bonus armor:

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

Why does the PVP set have attack power on it instead of strength?

Promethius · 08/22/08, 3:19 PM

I'd like to believe that's just a placeholder set. Looking at the plate for ret paladins, death knights and warriors, they're exactly the same except for glove and set bonuses. Granted that it's possible that's intended, the fact that tier/pvp pieces can be better customized for a class/spec than shared loot, that no glove or set bonuses have been implemented for the death knight yet, that no int exists on the ret paladin or feral sets, and that the druid glove bonus hasn't been reworked (give us back increased stealth detection?), it's likely hybrid pvp gear is still in the process of being designed.

mydhrin · 08/22/08, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

That's what's happening.

Then what is the point of furor for kitty? The point of the talent was that when you get into cat form, you start with 40 energy instead of 0. If we are getting energy when in caster form, then we will always be at 100 energy when you shift in cat (usually). Ok, powershifting is an exception here, but I really doubt that they are designing a talent on this sole exception...

Maeltne · 08/22/08, 3:29 PM

The point of energy seems to be that you start with full resources and have a fixed and predictable increase. This view seems to support the idea that whenever you shift into Cat some something else after some period of time you should have full energy. I mean Rogues have full energy all the time.

The point of rages seems to be that you start with none or a very limited amount and have to use that to get more.

I think it'd be cool, and in flavor, and needed buff to the class, but sadly I expect this to be a bug that is squashed quickly. Hopefully Blizzard takes a second looks and says ... hey you know what? That's NIFTY!

• Astrylian · 08/22/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by mydhrin

Then what is the point of furor for kitty? The point of the talent was that when you get into cat form, you start with 40 energy instead of 0. If we are getting energy when in caster form, then we will always be at 100 energy when you shift in cat (usually). Ok, powershifting is an exception here, but I really doubt that they are designing a talent on this sole exception...

No, that's the point of Furor. When you shift in, you still get 40 energy. I guarantee you most cats shift out and back into cat quite often, before getting back to full energy, whether it be to powershift, to heal, to fly to the next mob, or something else.

racy · 08/22/08, 3:50 PM

The new energy system is really nice. I tried grinding some mobs and its a pleasure to be able to shift out and heal, use travel form etc, and when you go back to killing you have full energy when you shift into cat.

The tickless system is also very nice, it doen't feel like you have to wait for energy as much anymore, and using maim and other abilities that cost below 40 energy is easier.

tlbj6142 · 08/22/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

to fly to the next mob

That's right. Gaining energy while out of Cat form means I can use travel, or flight, form more often while questing! Now when you have larger gaps between quest mobs, shifting to flight or travel forms won't cost you any energy! In the past, I stayed in cat form longer between mobs just so I'd have a full energy bar once one got in range. I wonder if you can make a "shift to travel (or flight) form, auto-run" macro?

Still seems a bit OP. Especially in PvP. Guess we'll see. Obviously, Blizzard still has some major changes in store for Feral Druids.

Originally Posted by racy

The tickless system is also very nice,

Though with the tickless system, didn't we effectively lose 20 energy at the start of every fight as you can no longer perform a "perfect pounce".

TheNameLessOne · 08/22/08, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by tlbj6142

That's right. Gaining energy while out of Cat form means I can use travel, or flight, form more often while questing! Now when you have larger gaps between quest mobs, shifting to flight or travel forms won't cost you any energy! In the past, I stayed in cat form longer between mobs just so I'd have a full energy bar once one got in range. I wonder if you can make a "shift to travel (or flight) form, auto-run" macro?

Still seems a bit OP. Especially in PvP. Guess we'll see. Obviously, Blizzard still has some major changes in store for Feral Druids.

Why is it OP in PVP?

Rogues don't lose all their energy when they vanish, sprint or cloak. Enhancement Shamans don't lose all their mana when they go into ghost wolf. Retadins don't lose all their mana when they equip a shield.

tlbj6142 · 08/22/08, 4:26 PM

Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne

Why is it OP in PVP?

Start fight with full bar, DPS, use KotJ, etc. Shift out to cast a heal or two. Bear-->FC, shift to cat (now with a full bar) do more DPS. Maybe I've just gotten use to the way it is now as a Feral PvP'r and see this change (along with other changes in the Feral tree) as giving me 10x the power I had before. Of course, maybe this just puts me more in-line with other classes? I don't know. And frankly, I never really cared before since I just do BG PvP to kill time (not to "win").

Melthu · 08/22/08, 4:54 PM

Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne

Why is it OP in PVP?

Rogues don't lose all their energy when they vanish, sprint or cloak. Enhancement Shamans don't lose all their mana when they go into ghost wolf. Retadins don't lose all their mana when they equip a shield.

We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.

Ravager · 08/22/08, 5:06 PM

Originally Posted by Melthu

We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.

I think the mana cost of switching in and out in forms will make abuse of this mechanic somewhat unfeasible, especially looking at the fact that the gear we'll be wearing in WotLK won't have Intellect on it.

Melthu · 08/22/08, 5:08 PM

Sorry for double posting, but I just found this on Emmerald's forums. It's a very interesting observation, should these energy regen changes stick:

Agreed. Instead of powershifting straight to cat form and ending up at 40 energy + global cooldown, now we can shift out, Wrath, Moonfire, and come back with FULL energy.

Consider that case where you have 10 energy and shift out. 2 second Wrath cast = 20 energy. 1.5 second global cooldown from Moonfire = 15 energy. Furor = 40 energy. Global cooldown from shapeshifting = 15 energy. 10 + 20 + 15 + 40 + 15 = 100 exactly. Of course, this assumes you're starting from 10 energy... if you have less, you'll end up waiting a fraction of a second to be at full energy--but that means you're WASTING less due to lag. If you have more, skip one of the spells and pop back sooner.

Apparently enhancement shamans are being steered towards using spells such as lightning bolt and lava burst in their standard dps rotation. It could be that they eventually intend for us to do the same.

mydhrin · 08/22/08, 5:10 PM

I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.

Mara · 08/22/08, 5:11 PM

Build 8820 - Patch Notes - World of Raids Forums

Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
Feral Swiftness: The movement speed buff can now be used indoors.

So: that raises the question. If roots/swiftness now work indoors, is there any useful distinction between indoor/outdoor in WoW? I can't think of any reason why this distinction should be continued.

The only remaining restriction seems to be on the arena/honor gear.

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

Time for it to be removed. Multiple classes have speed boosts now and snares. Allowing druids tier gear to provide the movement speed bonus (indoors and outdoors) doesn't seem overpowered and seems quite a logical extension given the other changes already made.

Ravager · 08/22/08, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Mara

Build 8820 - Patch Notes - World of Raids Forums

Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
Feral Swiftness: The movement speed buff can now be used indoors.

So: that raises the question. If roots/swiftness now work indoors, is there any useful distinction between indoor/outdoor in WoW? I can't think of any reason why this distinction should be continued.

The only remaining restriction seems to be on the arena/honor gear.

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

Time for it to be removed. Multiple classes have speed boosts now and snares. Allowing druids tier gear to provide the movement speed bonus (indoors and outdoors) doesn't seem overpowered and seems quite a logical extension given the other changes already made.

"Indoors" will still exist for the purpose of disallowing mount usage. The changes we Druids saw are more of a practicality than a sweeping change to the game's indoor/outdoor mechanics. We gained a new CC against melee targets and Feral Swiftness is more of a convenience than anything else.

tlbj6142 · 08/22/08, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by mydhrin

I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.

And frankly, as a feral I would hope our white damage would be more effective than our spell damage.

Melthu · 08/22/08, 5:37 PM

Originally Posted by mydhrin

I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.

We wouldn't need to constantly be casting and shifting. Thanks to the buffed Tiger's Fury and OOC we'll be able to sustain ourselves without shifting for longer periods of time. However, if the new energy system sticks around I think we'd have to at least consider the possibility of throwing in a Moonfire every so often. After all, currently with 0 spell damage Moonfire will do over 900 armor-ignoring damage and cost only a global cooldown, much more than we could get in that time span from white attacks.

TheNameLessOne · 08/22/08, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Melthu

We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.

Rogues can still auto attack, apply poisons, and have more survivability than a caster form feral druid. An enhancement shaman can shift out of ghost wolf and immediately start wailing on you. A retadin can immediately go back to being the top burst damage in the game as long as they have a blue bar.

Further more your examples are based on fighting a bunch of idiots who let you sit there and spam cast.