Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 50

aldy · 08/01/08, 5:47 PM

The armor situation does not worry me, since I think that armor is one of the main components of druid tanking as envisioned by the Blizzard developers, and I'm confident that it will be adequate come lvl 80 raid time, whether through adjusting talents, modifiers, or gear. I feel similarly about threat as one of a druid tank's core features, and something that will be adjusted appropriately.
However, the concept of strength giving mitigation through parry, while a wonderful and logical idea, is one that I feel will need some beta druid support. Here's to hoping.

Zhoreilh · 08/01/08, 7:22 PM

As an example of what kind of thing we'll be looking at, if you take every possible top-tier rogue upgrade from sunwell/T6 in all the leather slots which does not have extra armor, and all the best armor items in all the slots that have been shown to have additional armor (so weapon, amulet, trinketx2, ringx2, cloak) you have a total of 28.4k armor. That's with the top tier items, mind you; having lower tier everything would lower this significantly. So the best you can hope for is being 7k short of the armor cap. If this is the pattern of itemization, it would be a significant blow to druid tanking relative to other classes in terms of mitigation, especially without a significant improvement to threat.

28.4 K is 70% armor mitigation. A warrior with this level of stuff has about 66% mitigation (armor + defensive stance). That's 13,33% more effective health for the druid (i.e. HP/0.3 = 113.33*HP/0.34).
Now, if the druid is armor capped, that's 36% more EH. With the removal of crush, having 36% more effective health than a warrior would be seriously overpowered. 13.33% is much more likely.

-> losing bonus armor hurts our mitigation, but keeping it nerf other tank's survavibility. My guess is that our mitigation will be fixed by a up to avoidance, but Blizzard could have plan to nerf our survavibility somehow. The more disturbing, in fact, is that they don't communicate about it. Asking them in the beta forum may be a good idea.

Tappin · 08/01/08, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

A) If you feel the amount of tanking gear available early in WotLK isn't sufficient, report that feedback.
B) Stop the QQ about not seeing any bear itemization. It doesn't matter one bit once we hit 80. Itemization at 80 is what matters. If we get there and there's no good gear, then we can report that feedback. Until then, keep your QQs to yourself.

I've reported the feedback where I can on the official forums. But, I'm not in beta, so...

I am not trying to whine about current itemization. I have no doubts there will be more gear before release and even more post release (i.e. HCH made better for bears, badge of tenacity, etc. Still, we never did get a tanking weapon upgrade in TBC post T5, so...) My point is that, given the way druid tanks are designed (scaling survivability around only 3 stats, 1 that probably can cap at least for non-bosses), it will be very difficult to create any gear that ferals will want that could be shared with any other class. What other class wants items with an excess of agi and stamina? What other class wants +armor and agi?

I'd like to see blizzard have more options for creating bear gear. Bear gear shouldn't all look like: +armor, +agi, +sta. The current situation means that we will either share gear that is not well suited for us (like the armor/sta/block/defense rings. And even if that was the best bear ring in the game, wouldn't you feel bad about rolling on it?), or be limited to a very small set of gear nobody else wants (similar to T5-T6 TBC). If they instead spread our survivability to come from more than just armor, sta, and agi, it would be easier to avoid a whole separate set of 'bear gear' that will rot when bears are not around.

Pumbaa · 08/02/08, 12:37 AM

To me, the fact that no improved armor value leather has appeared is kinda encouraging. Maybe, just maybe, we'll get to use rogue leather for tanking, and they'll just improve our bear/talent bonus to armor value.

If we even need the armor increase.

ionasej · 08/02/08, 1:37 AM

Originally Posted by Zhoreilh

...Now, if the druid is armor capped, that's 36% more EH. With the removal of crush, having 36% more effective health than a warrior would be seriously overpowered. 13.33% is much more likely.

@ Zhoreiih.

I do not know why you point out such things, knowing that there is no issue with warrior tanking in SWP (where there are NO CRUSHINGS and even warrior related mitigation (read: avoidance) is heavily nerfed (and it probably hits them more than us)).
Only real "explanation" to me would be: they scale with gear - there is gear, we do not - cause there is none => and the thesis: this will change in wotlk. (Imagen stat optimal gear in SWP, maybe feral tanks would scale like hell, yes)

Effective Health is also defined by Stamina and Avoidance of other sorts. And we all know: if you stack avoidance of other sorts (Miss, Parry, Dodge and in Wrath maybe Block) you get MORE effectiveness per point. Going from 60% to 65% Avoid reduces your the damage you take from 40% to 35% which is a lot more than going from 25% avoid to 30% avoid which reduces your damage taken from 75% to 70%. In case of 25% to 30% that's a relative reduction by 1 - (70 / 75) = 0.0666666667 (or ~6.7%) - in case of going from 60 to 65% it is a relative reduction by 1 - (35 / 40) = 0,125 (or 12.5%) (as far as my math is right).

Considering that effect:
- armor always gives static reduction (100 armor, until reaching the cap, give you the same relative effect again and again)
- avoidance reduction scales with given avoidance
That way I can explain myself why in SWP Druid tanks were NOT OVERPOWERED but in line with Warrior tanks (no clue about paladin though, by experience/gathering data). SWP could be done well with a Druid tank in the team or without one. A warrior was/is still required because of its gimmicks (and even that will stay in WOTLK, even our pseudo-gimmick IW seems to be less strong then ANY counterparts of all 3 other tanking classes, even the (offical so called) tank/dps hybrid DK)

So I do not see why there should be a nerf to our current design. I understand why agility had to be nerfed, but to bring things in line they should just buff strength and make it somehow really useful for druid tanks (multiple suggestions: 25-40 STR = 1% Parry, having 5% base parry, or strength being a coefficient to parry and max HP, or strength multiplying our armor, maybe 30 STR buffing our absolute armor by 1%).

Furthermore Defense should really be redesigned so that it gives what you can take. If you cannot block (DK/Feral) you won't get block rating from it, but other benefits (recieved) should improve.

Upping the armor cap to 85% and setting an avoid cap of maybe 75% (only to be overwritten by emergency buttons/talents) should be wise as well as that stops ridiculous "non-static" scaling.

p.s. I fully agree with Tappin.

kalbear · 08/02/08, 4:01 AM

28.4 K is 70% armor mitigation. A warrior with this level of stuff has about 66% mitigation (armor + defensive stance). That's 13,33% more effective health for the druid (i.e. HP/0.3 = 113.33*HP/0.34).
Now, if the druid is armor capped, that's 36% more EH. With the removal of crush, having 36% more effective health than a warrior would be seriously overpowered. 13.33% is much more likely.

You're forgetting block value. Especially now that they're changing the str->BV rules, you're going to see a lot more of this as mitigation.

And again, this is the top of the line stuff, every single good drop possible, and not looking at anything else. That's a pretty big hit as far as effectiveness goes.

Zhoreilh · 08/02/08, 8:24 AM

Effective Health is also defined by Stamina and Avoidance of other sorts.

Effective health=Survival points in Rawr. The tooltip in Rawr gives a good explaination : the goal is "having enough to survive burst damage". Avoidance is for mitigation points (armor+avoidance).
Both are important, but if your warrior MT is killed too often by burst damage and you're not, you can be pretty sure you'll be the new MT.

Kazanir · 08/02/08, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by ionasej

Astrylian is probably right that QQing here (in these Forums) makes no sense

So please stop doing it. Your posts display a lack of perspective and an enduring desire to whine and bitch despite knowing nothing about available gear at level 80. If the bears in the beta get to 80 and there are no gear upgrades suitable for tanking Naxx and the other level 80 raids, we will certainly raise hell about it. The blue quest rewards on the way to 80 aren't all that relevant, although I wouldn't be surprised if we see a repeat of the Manimal's Cinch-style gear from some Storm Peaks/Icecrown quests.

Ravager · 08/02/08, 4:32 PM

Some confirmation that it is, indeed, Blizzard's intent to have Ferals spec for either DPS or tanking.

WoW Forums -> Feral Concerns in WotLK

The design is for bears to be viable, end-game main tanks. The design is for cats to be viable, end-game melee dps. In both cases you are going to need the right talents, good gear, skill and companions who can back you up -- I don't mean to imply raiding will be easy.

If you want to do a little tanking and dps, you probably won't be as optimal at either, though you'll probably always be better at switching between the two than other classes. In order to be as good at tanking as the other classes, you might have to give up a few talents that maximize your dps, and vice versa. This is a good thing -- it lets you choose to actually be a main tank.

We are adding a new class to Lich King, as well as improving the raid viability of specs such as Arcane mage, Survival hunter and Balance druid. That means you have 30 available specs for 25 slots. There are two ways to design around this problem. One is that there are 25 mandatory specs and 5 that shouldn't be raiding. Boo. A more fun, interesting and ultimately fair direction is that you actually have some choices in who to bring. Imagine running a raid with no warrior tanks at all.

Don't worry about your bears. The armor and other changes were done to fix itemization issues, not to nerf druids. You've already gotten the ability to drink pots in bear form and benefit from weapon enchants and windfury. We have plenty of knobs to turn to make sure you can do your job even better than you could in LK.

• sadris · 08/02/08, 5:13 PM

Except that is wrong. We don't have bear and separate cat talents. We have bear+cat talents. We can't take points out of our tanking talents to invest into our dps ones. This wasn't an issue in TBC when we could get everything we wanted and then some, but it is now. Talents need to be separated into different roles like the DK ones.

TimWischmeier · 08/02/08, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Except that is wrong. We don't have bear and separate cat talents. We have bear+cat talents. We can't take points out of our tanking talents to invest into our dps ones. This wasn't an issue in TBC when we could get everything we wanted and then some, but it is now. Talents need to be separated into different roles like the DK ones.

And adding to that, the concept in itself i flawed, I think.

So let's imagine how this concept would play out: I would try to get all bear talents. So I expect to be my raids MT in 25 man raids. So I have to be on par with warriors, but I do still lack some gimmicks like shield wall, spell reflect, shortened growl CD, TC, Vigiliance and Imp Defstance for 16% less magic damage. So if it comes to progression, I would not be suprised if a full bear-talented feral would not be the choice for MT. And this goes for dps: I cannot imagine our kitty dps being on par with other dps classes (abit less of course due to lotp).

As the trees stand now I cannot see a full bear / cat spec being 100% as good as their "mother class". As a consequence you would not take a feral tank or dps if you go for early kills (meaning no nerfed bosses, gear quality one tier lower etc).

But I do also think that we cannot foresee how the talent trees play out without knowing further details on the end game itemization. And I even have some hopes for that "easy acces to two talent spec" thing.

Ravager · 08/02/08, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Except that is wrong. We don't have bear and separate cat talents. We have bear+cat talents. We can't take points out of our tanking talents to invest into our dps ones. This wasn't an issue in TBC when we could get everything we wanted and then some, but it is now. Talents need to be separated into different roles like the DK ones.

The problem with that is there are already 3 talents trees available to the Druid, just like every class.
I don't think it's such a bad thing that Druids can further specialize into tanking or doing DPS.

Paladins, for example, have their healing/tanking/DPS trees. With Druids you essentially have four specs to choose from - nuking/healing/tanking/melee damage. Still, even if you spec into the tanking talents you are a much more valuable source of damage during fights where you're not tanking versus Prot Pallies and Prot Warriors.

Originally Posted by TimWischmeier

And adding to that, the concept in itself i flawed, I think.

So let's imagine how this concept would play out: I would try to get all bear talents. So I expect to be my raids MT in 25 man raids. So I have to be on par with warriors, but I do still lack some gimmicks like shield wall, spell reflect, shortened growl CD, TC, Vigiliance and Imp Defstance for 16% less magic damage. So if it comes to progression, I would not be suprised if a full bear-talented feral would not be the choice for MT. And this goes for dps: I cannot imagine our kitty dps being on par with other dps classes (abit less of course due to lotp).

As the trees stand now I cannot see a full bear / cat spec being 100% as good as their "mother class". As a consequence you would not take a feral tank or dps if you go for early kills (meaning no nerfed bosses, gear quality one tier lower etc).

But I do also think that we cannot foresee how the talent trees play out without knowing further details on the end game itemization. And I even have some hopes for that "easy acces to two talent spec" thing.

That's the very definition of hybrid and what the Druid class is all about. I think it would be tremendously unfair to pure DPS classes if Feral Druids were competitive with them. What you lack in abilities like Shield Wall, Spell Reflect, Vigilance, etc. you make up with the ability to still do a lot more damage than a Prot Warrior/Paladin when you're not tanking.

TimWischmeier · 08/02/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Ravager

That's the very definition of hybrid and what the Druid class is all about. I think it would be tremendously unfair to pure DPS classes if Feral Druids were competitive with them. What you lack in abilities like Shield Wall, Spell Reflect, Vigilance, etc. you make up with the ability to still do a lot more damage than a Prot Warrior/Paladin when you're not tanking.

This is true. but what I tried to explain (native german

) is: if you are going for your guild's first kill and you are not tanking, you are most probably be swapped for some real dps class. "Still doing more dps than prot warrior/paladin" is just important when a) there is OT and dps jobs in the same encounter or b) you are farming an instance and want to save some time.

If Blizzards plans feral to make their choice between pce bear and cat, than the specc has to be fully competetive with prots / dps classes.

• sadris · 08/02/08, 6:47 PM

Originally Posted by Ravager

I don't think it's such a bad thing that Druids can further specialize into tanking or doing DPS.

Again, wrong.

We don't have separate feral talents that we can pick and choose to specialize into dps or tanking. All talents are coupled (except Savage Fury). The expertise talent is coupled with a finishing move talent. Rend and Tear effects both Maul and Shred. HOTW gives bear and cat bonuses. Improved Mangle effects both cat and bear mangle. Master Shapeshifter effects all forms The list goes on for almost every talent. In its current incarnation, we cannot make tradeoffs to maximize our effectiveness in one role (dps or tanking) as all our talents are linked to provide benefit to both cat and bear. Taking points out of any talent reduces our effectiveness in both roles whereas if they were separated, this wouldn't be the case.

Kazanir · 08/02/08, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by sadris

Again, wrong.

We don't have separate feral talents that we can pick and choose to specialize into dps or tanking. All talents are coupled (except Savage Fury). The expertise talent is coupled with a finishing move talent. Rend and Tear effects both Maul and Shred. HOTW gives bear and cat bonuses. Improved Mangle effects both cat and bear mangle. Master Shapeshifter effects all forms The list goes on for almost every talent. In its current incarnation, we cannot make tradeoffs to maximize our effectiveness in one role (dps or tanking) as all our talents are linked to provide benefit to both cat and bear. Taking points out of any talent reduces our effectiveness in both roles whereas if they were separated, this wouldn't be the case.

That's true, but many of the linked talents are only useful for one side or the other in a raiding environment:

Feral Aggression - Marginally useful for a bear if you have no Imp. Demo Shout, completely useless for cat DPS.
Feral Instinct - Very useful for bears, completely useless for cat DPS.
Feral Swiftness - Very useful for bears, completely useless for cat DPS.
Improved Mangle - Great for bears, but only a moderate boost (if that) for cat DPS.

Shredding Attacks - Essential for cat DPS, but only marginally helpful for bear threat output.
King of the Jungle - Pretty good for cat DPS, but not huge for bears except maybe for snap aggro.

Feral FF - Depends entirely on your raiding environment, role, presence of moonkin, etc.
Infected Wounds - I'm not convinced that 1 point in this is enough to keep it stacked with just Maul/Mangle in bear form. Even in testing with just 1 point in cat form it can sometimes fall off the mob. In bear form if you want it up consistently you probably want 2 points, maybe all three. Again, the status of the talent depends on your raid role. I'll be doing more testing on this so stay tuned.

All of that said, sadris' assertions are right about many of the "doubled-up" talents and if Blizzard really wants to create two mini-trees then they have a lot of work to do. I think it would be more feasible to clearly delineate between PvE raiding talents and PvP feral talents and design the tree such that it's not possible to get all of both of them.

Overall I think the feral tree is probably bloated by around 5 or so points. In particular, Rend and Tear is a terrible talent to be so deep in the tree -- compare to Naturalist and you'll see what I mean. I'd scrap the talent entirely, or make it 2 points for the same effect and move King of the Jungle down to that second-to-last tier.

P.S. I'm taking requests on stuff to test on the (PvP) beta server -- I have a druid at 70 and one at 77 available to look at feral stuff.