Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08/02/08, 7:20 PM   #751
Talid
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by sadris View Post
Again, wrong.

We don't have separate feral talents that we can pick and choose to specialize into dps or tanking. All talents are coupled (except Savage Fury). The expertise talent is coupled with a finishing move talent. Rend and Tear effects both Maul and Shred. HOTW gives bear and cat bonuses. Improved Mangle effects both cat and bear mangle. Master Shapeshifter effects all forms The list goes on for almost every talent. In its current incarnation, we cannot make tradeoffs to maximize our effectiveness in one role (dps or tanking) as all our talents are linked to provide benefit to both cat and bear. Taking points out of any talent reduces our effectiveness in both roles whereas if they were separated, this wouldn't be the case.
The thing is, some of the talents have a greater increase for dps vs a greater increase for tanking. Due to the fact that you HAVE to go 11 points in to resto (I wish I could swing 16 to get Master Shapeshifter), that leaves you with 60 talent points at max level to get every useful talent in the feral tree for dpsing and tanking. With the changes to Ferocious Bite and the Feral Aggression / Rend and Tear buffs to it, you'd need 66 talent points and this is skipping Brutal Impact, Nurturing Instinct and Primal Tenacity entirely.

The idea of having to choose between Bear and Cat in your spec is annoying because neither will be as good as the class you're imitating. You don't scale as well as a rogue in cat form and you don't tank as well as a warrior in bear form.

Why even bother to spec feral if no matter what you do, you can't do it as well as a base class. The old argument of other utility has no merit any longer because it's not accurate at all. You're not going to jump out and battle rez someone when you're tanking, so why list that as a benefit of the class?

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 7:44 PM   #752
Ravager
Piston Honda
 
Ravager's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Talid View Post
Why even bother to spec feral if no matter what you do, you can't do it as well as a base class. The old argument of other utility has no merit any longer because it's not accurate at all. You're not going to jump out and battle rez someone when you're tanking, so why list that as a benefit of the class?
Old argument?
What about shifting out of cat form to battle-rez a healer while the prot warrior tanks a raid boss? Talk about wipe prevention!
What about shifting out of cat form to innervate someone?
Hell, what about the flat +5% to crit chance that you give your group when in cat form or bear form?

In response to the "ferals can't tank as well as prot warriors and they can't DPS as well as rogues so why bother?" argument, how do you think rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters would feel if a class can DPS as hard as them one day and be a healing champion the next? Getting a set of gear is sure hell of a lot easier than leveling to 70+ again.

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 8:03 PM   #753
TimWischmeier
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kult der Verdammten (EU)
Originally Posted by Ravager View Post
In response to the "ferals can't tank as well as prot warriors and they can't DPS as well as rogues so why bother?" argument, how do you think rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters would feel if a class can DPS as hard as them one day and be a healing champion the next?
You cannot dps and heal like the corresponding main class with the same spec and/or gearset.

Beside that: If I do not the same dps (bit less due to lotp) as a rogue, why would I deserve a dps slot in a fight where it matters? Think of Brutallus: you don't kill him beofre enrage, you raidleader ask you to make oom for a rogue. What will you reply? "Hey, but I can come in and heal if you want"? When it comes down to min/maxing, you either are competetive or not. If you're not, it's not going to help you that you would be able to respecc and do something else sub-par.

Oh, and if ferals are not allowed to be competetive with at least their tank or dps pendant, why are trees?

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 8:05 PM   #754
Talid
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Ravager View Post
Old argument?
What about shifting out of cat form to battle-rez a healer while the prot warrior tanks a raid boss? Talk about wipe prevention!
What about shifting out of cat form to innervate someone?
Hell, what about the flat +5% to crit chance that you give your group when in cat form or bear form?

In response to the "ferals can't tank as well as prot warriors and they can't DPS as well as rogues so why bother?" argument, how do you think rogues, mages, warlocks, and hunters would feel if a class can DPS as hard as them one day and be a healing champion the next? Getting a set of gear is sure hell of a lot easier than leveling to 70+ again.
That's a really stupid comparison, sorry. Sure a druid CAN change roles and gear and become a healer. But that isn't what I am arguing. If that rogue really wants to play a healer then he can level one. Maybe that druid really DOESN'T want to play a healer and enjoys being feral only.

The feral tree is a separate beast (forgive the pun). You have two rolls in that tree, tanking and melee dps. You shouldn't HAVE to choose between the two within the one tree.

Currently, the fact that you get both in one tree is balanced by the fact that you're 80% to both roles. Having you choose one or the other without making you 100% in the one you choose is lame. In the expansion, if I choose to be a cat-based melee dps, then that dps should be able to be as good as a rogue's dps. If I choose to be a bear-based tank, then I should be able to tank as well as a warrior.

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 8:30 PM   #755
Unity
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
<ten>
Khaz'goroth
A Cat-specialised Druid shouldn't be 100% of a rogue. Rogues don't bring a crit buff, res or refill anyone's mana bar. A Bear-specialised Druid does need to be 100% of a Warrior since caster form utility isn't accessible while tanking.

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 8:34 PM   #756
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
Lord BEEF's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
It seems somewhat futile to try to limit you to 100% performance in either cat or bear, when you have free respecs. It'll just end with you respeccing for the optimal role each fight. I can see why they'd want to limit what you can be in a single fight but they're deluding themselves if they think you're really making a choice.

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 8:38 PM   #757
Astrylian
Rawr
 
Astrylian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
Don't forget that there's still that whole 'two talent builds that you can swap between' thing that may be coming, which will let us swap between Cat and Bear specs perhaps. Dunno when you'll be able to swap though, perhaps any time out of combat, perhaps only back at a trainer... Who knows, but that's definitely relevant.

I would agree though with them splitting talents up between cat and bear more, if they want us to specialize in one.

Rawr!

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 9:06 PM   #758
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by Unity View Post
A Cat-specialised Druid shouldn't be 100% of a rogue. Rogues don't bring a crit buff, res or refill anyone's mana bar. A Bear-specialised Druid does need to be 100% of a Warrior since caster form utility isn't accessible while tanking.
Cat should be on par w/ fury warriors if they are going to redo the whole tree as cat and bear.

I seriously doubt they are going to redesign the entire tree however. More likely that blue doesn't really understand what they are talking about. Remember this same one that thinks kitty does equal rogue DPS currently and that the Lich King talent trees are already split into cat and bear.

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 9:26 PM   #759
Okoto
Glass Joe
 
Okoto's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kel'Thuzad
Could any beta testes clarify how the new predictive movement system works with regards to feral combat.

I read beta notes (I believe) on the subject yet I had understood that it was a combination of both hitbox size and latency that would factor into the inability to properly hit targets without being on top of them.

Is it now that when in cat & bear forms the hitboxes of your opponent are passively increased in size for only you ?

Offline
Old 08/02/08, 10:48 PM   #760
Astrylian
Rawr
 
Astrylian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
No, nothing about hitboxes or ranges, specifically. Rather, it just means that the spot you see them more accurately depicts their position on the server. So when you are chasing someone and they're in range client-side, they're (more likely to be) in range server-side too.

Rawr!

Offline
Old 08/03/08, 12:03 AM   #761
Ravager
Piston Honda
 
Ravager's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Talid View Post
That's a really stupid comparison, sorry. Sure a druid CAN change roles and gear and become a healer. But that isn't what I am arguing. If that rogue really wants to play a healer then he can level one. Maybe that druid really DOESN'T want to play a healer and enjoys being feral only.

The feral tree is a separate beast (forgive the pun). You have two rolls in that tree, tanking and melee dps. You shouldn't HAVE to choose between the two within the one tree.

Currently, the fact that you get both in one tree is balanced by the fact that you're 80% to both roles. Having you choose one or the other without making you 100% in the one you choose is lame. In the expansion, if I choose to be a cat-based melee dps, then that dps should be able to be as good as a rogue's dps. If I choose to be a bear-based tank, then I should be able to tank as well as a warrior.
This is not a limitation of your talent trees, it's a limitation (by design) of your class as a whole.

Offline
Old 08/03/08, 12:44 AM   #762
Talid
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Ravager View Post
This is not a limitation of your talent trees, it's a limitation (by design) of your class as a whole.
It isn't an acceptable limitation with the looming changes to the feral tree requiring you to pick one role to excel at (dps/tanking)

Offline
Old 08/03/08, 12:51 AM   #763
Ravager
Piston Honda
 
Ravager's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Talid View Post
It isn't an acceptable limitation with the looming changes to the feral tree requiring you to pick one role to excel at (dps/tanking)
You left out the part where even though you excel at one role, you're still pretty damn awesome at the other one.

Offline
Old 08/03/08, 1:05 AM   #764
Talid
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Yea sure. Except that -with the changes- if you choose to spec for tanking your (already bad) dps takes a hit. If you spec for dps, who knows how your tanking will be...we haven't seen the gear... but it will probably be a noticable decrease in effectiveness. So again the issue becomes why take a feral when you can take a moonkin or tree? Especially where DKs are apparently getting the 'Tank that can DPS when not tanking' mantle that we've had

Offline
Old 08/03/08, 1:07 AM   #765
Garanthir
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eldre'Thalas
A secondary spec, or talent bank, or whatever would help, but.... I also seem to think many folks are wanting a little too much. Sure we want to spec appropriately for encounters, but there is so much to be considered. Do you plan on tanking 5 mans, 10 mans, 25 mans,OT,MT, etc? A spec for 5 man where you are pretty much guaranteed to be the only tank might require a few extra points in one area vs. a 25 man tank spec that has many classes providing buffs/debuffs. In the case of a 25 man tank I can't see where things like IW and Feral Aggression would be required. Those few points right there pretty much give you everything you need to DPS **and** tank in a 25 man.

So to me I think the big tree is nice it really does give flexibility and allows us to "specialize" a bit.

ON EDIT: People are talking like DPS vs. Tank is some huge change, when in reality it's simply swapping a few points around. I think this is getting a bit blown out of proportion.

Last edited by Garanthir : 08/03/08 at 1:09 AM. Reason: Added DPS thing.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Thread Tools