It'll have to be seen whether or not the lack of INT on PVP items is intentional or not,.
Sadly, blues have been very quiet lately. They haven't even given us a thumbs up or thumbs down on the new energy regen mechanic (god I hope it goes through).
Are you sure about the 2.5 multiplier? Granted that I have returned to feral theorycrafting after a long pause from WoW, I am fairly sure it was never multiplied by Bear's weapon speed. Shouldn't it be: 1.15 (Mangle) * 1.1 (Naturalist) * 1.2 (Savage Fury) = 1.518.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
We're both wrong. I forgot Naturalist.
Bear's attack speed is 2.5 seconds (which is the base attack used to find Mangle's damage) and hence we use 2.5 as our base for AP calculations, just as a 2 handed weapon uses a normalised weapon speed of 3.3 for AP calculations.
Bear's attack speed is 2.5 seconds (which is the base attack used to find Mangle's damage) and hence we use 2.5 as our base for AP calculations, just as a 2 handed weapon uses a normalised weapon speed of 3.3 for AP calculations.
1.1*1.2*1.15*2.5 = 3.795
That is a very good AP multiplier. It's almost exactly the same as Mortal Strike including Imp. MS and 2H weapon spec or Crusader Strike with 2h weapon spec. However, I think that this is kind of required as we have bad AP scaling on all our other threat abilities.
Has anybody tested if the 1.3 threat multiplier on Mangle(Bear) still is there, despite the large damage boost it has recieved? I don't seem to recall anybody adressing it in this thread.
1.1*1.2*1.15*2.5 = 3.795
That is a very good AP multiplier. It's almost exactly the same as Mortal Strike including Imp. MS and 2H weapon spec or Crusader Strike with 2h weapon spec. However, I think that this is kind of required as we have bad AP scaling on all our other threat abilities.
Has anybody tested if the 1.3 threat multiplier on Mangle(Bear) still is there, despite the large damage boost it has recieved? I don't seem to recall anybody adressing it in this thread.
Never mind, i thought Savage Roar was applicable, but it`s only for kitty.
"Powershifting" was never an intended mechanic. However, it has become so prevalent among Feral Druids that if we did not eliminate it, we would have to balance around it. So, this change effectively eliminates the possibility to gain extra energy regeneration through the Furor talent. For the intended use: shift out, heal self a bit or Innervate or Tranquility or Rebirth, go back to Cat Form, it will work as well as it ever has.
The Cat Form energy regeneration mechanics you are seeing in the current beta build are a bug resulting from "powershifting" being partially fixed. We changed energy regeneration on Cat Form so that it occurs continuously no matter what form the Druid is in. However, the second half of the change did not make it in before the data pull for the build. When Furor triggers on shifting to Cat Form, your energy will be set to the maximum of its current value and 40. So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration. If Furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent, energy is set to 0.
Is it me or does this mean that when we shift to cat form we will not have 100 energy if it was more then 10 seconds out of form? Does this special mechanic only apply when we are in combat?
Also, with this new information, i believe they REALLY need to change the furor talent to something new, because now it is pretty sure It will not be a viable talent for ferals, even if we consider bear rage...
The post confuses me somewhat. So the natural energy regen in any form caps out at 40 as well? Or does having furor actually hurt your ability ito store more than 40 energy if you were out of form for over 4 sec? Either way, it looks like the marginal utility of the talent has been reduced to almost only powershifting when it comes to cat form.
The post confuses me somewhat. So the natural energy regen in any form caps out at 40 as well? Or does having furor actually hurt your ability ito store more than 40 energy if you were out of form for over 4 sec? Either way, it looks like the marginal utility of the talent has been reduced to almost only powershifting when it comes to cat form.
Even there, the usage of furor for powershifting is useless because it will never give you extra energy. Like they said, they want to get rid of the powershifting phenomenon. I'm in agreement with this, but I hope that they intend to change the Furor talent to something more useful like a STR or AGI ratio buff or something of the sort.
I'm a little confused on hit rating. We've all been complaining that with all the new rogue gear we're going to go over the cap for hit rating. I thought that this meant that our hit cap was still going to be 142, but after reading on the WotLK Wiki forums and playing with Tossk's calculator it looks like we need > 295 hit rating to remove all misses (not dodges or parries). The base value explanations are confusing to me and I was wondering if someone else could explain what the current (in beta) hit cap is for druids.
It is a bit confusing until you read it a couple of times. I believe what this means is:
- You're always regenerating energy, in and out of cat form
- If you have 40 or more energy in humanoid form, do not have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 0 energy
- If you have 40 or more energy in humanoid form, do have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 40 energy
- If you have less than 40 energy in humanoid form, do not have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 0 energy
- If you have less than 40 energy in humanoid form, do have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will retain that energy. So if you had 23 energy in humanoid form, you will have 23 energy in cat form.
With this change powershifting is no longer beneficial but furor is still useful for its intended purpose. It is very heavily PVP-weighted now, though. I'm not sure I'd bother taking it for PvE.
The way I read that was, furor can only give you up to 40 energy. The amount you get is 40 minus the energy you have regened, aka, if you are out of cat form for more than 4 seconds, it does nothing. But yeah, really confusing post.
Edit: Reading slant's post, I think he has it right.
I'm a little confused on hit rating. We've all been complaining that with all the new rogue gear we're going to go over the cap for hit rating. I thought that this meant that our hit cap was still going to be 142, but after reading on the WotLK Wiki forums and playing with Tossk's calculator it looks like we need > 295 hit rating to remove all misses (not dodges or parries). The base value explanations are confusing to me and I was wondering if someone else could explain what the current (in beta) hit cap is for druids.
No, it should still be 142 hit rating for 2 reasons:
1st -> I believe they didn't change the ratio of hit rating to hit %.
2nd -> No matter if your 70, 71, or 80, the hit percentage for a mob the same level as you (or 3 level higher for bosses) doesn't change, so it stays at 9% (if I remember correctly).
This change will cause furor to behave in an identical manner to how it behaves in live and it's pretty clearly worded as well. It literally says "[max] furor will give you a max of 40 energy on a shift to cat and none will give you 0". Nothing else will change.
Last edited by Feorthas : 08/28/08 at 2:33 PM.
Reason: phrasing
This also just in. 2T4 proc will be removed by level 80. It starts at a 4% chance to proc at 70 (same as currently), drops by 0.4% each level, ending up with a 0% chance to proc at 80.
Edit: Slant's post appears correct. Powershifting is now impossible. Furor just simply sets an energy cap at 40 energy retained when shifting into cat.
It is a bit confusing until you read it a couple of times. I believe what this means is:
- You're always regenerating energy, in and out of cat form
- If you have 40 or more energy in humanoid form, do not have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 0 energy
- If you have 40 or more energy in humanoid form, do have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 40 energy
- If you have less than 40 energy in humanoid form, do not have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will have 0 energy
- If you have less than 40 energy in humanoid form, do have the furor talent, and shift to cat, you will retain that energy. So if you had 23 energy in humanoid form, you will have 23 energy in cat form.
With this change powershifting is no longer beneficial but furor is still useful for its intended purpose.
That's my understanding. Its closest comparison is to Stance Mastery.
If it's also true that Feral Charge is now rage-free, the biggest general benefit to Furor will be instant Bash. Being able to hang on to some energy is still powerful in contexts where you actually need to shift frequently (i.e. PVP), but I think Furor has gone from a must-have talent in general to a must-have PVP talent. For PVE ferals, I think Imp MotW and Nature's Focus are now also a pretty good choice.
I must have misread. All the change does is revert Furor to what it does on live. If you have Furor you'll be at 40 energy when you shift regardless of the scenario, if you don't have Furor or don't take full points and don't get the proc you start at 0 energy. The energy regen in any form other than cat basically doesn't do anything, which makes me wonder why it was even implemented.
I think he meant "min(current_energy, 40)" which would produce the results described above.
Yeah, that's really confusing on their part. So furor will still help with powershifting, it sounds like. This quote is especially confusing:
So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration. If Furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent, energy is set to 0.
It should hopefully be the opposite - if you are over 40, you gain no extra energy. If you are under 40, you go to 40. And the 'if furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent' part makes no sense with the energy out of forms.
But the above behavior I outlined doesn't explain their goal of removing powershifting completely.
Some more clarification/examples from the devs would be really great on the beta forums. It sounds to me like they're effectively removing the need for furor, or at least wanting to remove it.
ETA: Ah, okay. In the context of nerfing both furor and making energy ticks not special, it makes sense. So...in humanoid form you're always regenerating energy, but only X can be transferred in cat form - where X is either 0 (untalented) or 40 (furor). That's pretty lousy, tbh. But it does remove any powershifting goodness.
When Furor triggers on shifting to Cat Form, your energy will be set to the maximum of its current value and 40. So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration.
Edit: I think blue mispoke and you end up with the minimum of current energy or 40.
As I understand it, if we shift with 10 energy on beta, we end up with 50 (+latency energy).
If they want us to end up with 10, it makes furor less valuable than live. Basically you end up with 10 (assuming 1 second gcd) to 40 energy when you shift to cat instead of just 40.
If we get the maximum of current or 40 (as stated), we end up with 40. That's what the statement above describes, but I don't think that's what he meant. It's basically the same powershifting we have on live?
I have no problem with them removing powershifting as long as they balance our dps around only flat energy regen + omen procs + kotj (or give us other energy regen talents). Considering we weren't balanced even using powershifting skillfully and liberally, that's a lot of work. Due to our high yellow damage, we're even more dependent on energy regen (and far less on haste/hit) and yet don't regen it as well without powershifting.
If I understand the math right, removing powershifting would make Savage Roar less powerful, as it will be harder to generate a quick cycle that takes advantage of it... even more balancing to do...
Edit: I liked the idea of having a full energy bar after 10 seconds in caster, even if they removed powershifting. It appears that won't work either. You end up with a max of 40 no matter how long you spend in caster form?
Edit: I'm pretty sure he mistated and we get the minimum of current energy or 40 when we shift to cat. If that's the case, powershifting is gone: furor does very little if you have less than 40 energy. And the benefits of energy regen while in bear or cat is capped at 40, making furor fairly unattractive on the cat side.
Basically, it works like tactical mastery now. If you chance stances, you lose all of your energy unless you have Furor, which caps the amount of energy you can RETAIN at 40.
It doesn't GIVE you energy anymore, it simply prevents you from losing some of it when you switch into cat form.
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It should hopefully be the opposite - if you are over 40, you gain no extra energy. If you are under 40, you go to 40. And the 'if furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent' part makes no sense with the energy out of forms.
It does. Assuming I'm parsing this correctly, the change to energy regeneration mechanics ensures that Furor allows you to hold on to energy gained out of form, but does not allow for powershifting (in that you're not getting free energy, only keeping what you've actually regenerated, to a max of 40). It's a two-step workaround.
It does. Assuming I'm parsing this correctly, the change to energy regeneration mechanics ensures that Furor allows you to hold on to energy gained out of form,
08/27/08, 5:47 PM
