Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 54

dukes · 08/05/08, 8:28 AM

Originally Posted by david0925

Now we just need travel form to work indoors and that'll completely remove the indoor/outdoor requirement of druids, or is there something I missed?

Roots? (unless they changed that while I wasn't paying attention).

One change for strength would be to provide armour from strength at some conversion ratio while in Bear form, the value of which would depend on whether it gets a multiplier from bear form or not (either as a talent or base addition to bear form). Basically direct physical damage reduction, but in a form that is accepted as being the place Druid tanks excel (huge armour values) and would benefit from buffs such as Inspiration. I'm not sure introducing parry or block would really be RP-esque enough after 4 years of not having them (and it would just feel weird).

Alternatively in terms of armour from items, it's possible they'll review Thick Hide and increase the % gain from the talent. Increasing it to say 25% (8/16/25) with no additional armour items would help to balance out the difference. Comparing rogue leather T6 (373 armour) with feral T6 (611) shows a difference of more than 50% gain in additional armour which we may not see at all in WotLK. Increasing thick hide substantially would solve this, but it's such a high up talent that both trees and moonkins would be able to benefit from it, potentially throwing the balance of both of those specs slightly in PvP terms (unless they're planning on scrapping healing and spell damage leather entirely, which could be an option to reduce individual spec drops).

Should be interesting to see what happens.

• Melthu · 08/05/08, 8:43 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

Roots? (unless they changed that while I wasn't paying attention).

Roots is also being made usable indoors.

seminarca · 08/05/08, 8:45 AM

Keep in mind, there are many flavor ways to introduce a "block" type damage reduction. Imagine something like:

Shattering Snarl: The druid snarls, decreasing damage done by target enemy's next melee attack by 100% of the Druid's Strength. 15 second cooldown.

Lower cooldown than the new Warrior Shield Block (since we don't "Snarl" passively).

edit: Obvious disclaimer being that the numbers can be tweaked precisely for balance once we know more about pre endgame stat levels.

Roots is usable indoors now by the way.

mydhrin · 08/05/08, 9:09 AM

But I don't think "convenience factor" is ultimately a great value to bring to a raid.

This just makes my whole week

Now lets hope that they scale tanking enough so that when we choose to have a feral tank spec, we are as good as warrior and if we choose to get feral kitty spec, then were ALMOST as good as rogues. This means that were not subpar to anyone and that when ur in LFG saying your a feral kitty wont be replied by : go spec resto cause kitty is worthless...

Duilliath · 08/05/08, 9:12 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

One change for strength would be to provide armour from strength at some conversion ratio while in Bear form, the value of which would depend on whether it gets a multiplier from bear form or not (either as a talent or base addition to bear form). Basically direct physical damage reduction, but in a form that is accepted as being the place Druid tanks excel (huge armour values) and would benefit from buffs such as Inspiration. I'm not sure introducing parry or block would really be RP-esque enough after 4 years of not having them (and it would just feel weird).

Alternatively in terms of armour from items, it's possible they'll review Thick Hide and increase the % gain from the talent. Increasing it to say 25% (8/16/25) with no additional armour items would help to balance out the difference. Comparing rogue leather T6 (373 armour) with feral T6 (611) shows a difference of more than 50% gain in additional armour which we may not see at all in WotLK. Increasing thick hide substantially would solve this, but it's such a high up talent that both trees and moonkins would be able to benefit from it, potentially throwing the balance of both of those specs slightly in PvP terms (unless they're planning on scrapping healing and spell damage leather entirely, which could be an option to reduce individual spec drops).

Should be interesting to see what happens.

Considering level 10 bears can parry, I'm not too fussed about that being 'RP'-wrong.

They were thinking of increasing 'Thick Hide' - which they went about it the other way with a (now removed) talent that improved armour another 10% and reduced magic damage. Seeing how that's gone I'd think they'll have Bears at the intended armour levels regardless through some other means.

Snarley · 08/05/08, 9:52 AM

Suggestion wise so far, the armor through strength wouldn’t be a bad way to offset all the strength we will see on tank gear. It seems the most logical rather then giving us a block ability or straight up passive parry that we have never had and then having to balance us around having that ability. We have always been known for sick armor values and our physical mitigation abilities.

Now, I am just throwing it out there but what about allowing thorns (or maybe a talent called rugged fur?) to gain a certain buff from strength? (Let’s hope they increase the timer from 10 minutes to something respectable... 30 or so) Whether it be a passive amount we get healed for each time we are hit (helping physical as well as magical mitigation), or it buffs the damage thorns deal each time we are hit (would help our AoE tanking ability immensely once we drew the initial agro, and also differs from all the new ways the other tanks can AoE tank). If they decide to redesign the tree a bit and actually put in some bear centric talent to allow this it would go along with their post of intent in having bear/cat specific specs to truly excel at one or the other.

Or maybe a bear talent to create an aura around us (to paly like for me but still a cool idea) called Sacred ground that deals nature damage based off of strength to each mob close enough.

The glaring issue with this is that it relies on a buff and not a passive gain from strength (can be dispelled in pvp as well as from mobs with the capability in PvE)

Duilliath · 08/05/08, 10:55 AM

Sounds cool - though I'd be thinking more along the lines of a passive 'block/absorb' value on thorns than increased damage (not that you'll hear me complaining about either). Duration would have to be upped dramatically though. Imagine Supremus WotLK version which is 20 minutes of boredom, except no chance to shift out.
I don't quite see your suggestions working with a Resto/Balance druid casting them on a tanking Druid. That'd be kind of silly (and possibly downright flukey with the new Brambles talent).

Lord BEEF · 08/05/08, 11:00 AM

Giving a mitigation bonus based on strength is a bad idea. Attack power would be fine though. Remember that you'll likely have rogue gear in a few slots.

Garanthir · 08/05/08, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Giving a mitigation bonus based on strength is a bad idea. Attack power would be fine though. Remember that you'll likely have rogue gear in a few slots.

Bah I was typing up a long reply, but that sums it up. Another option is some sort of change to Demo Roar, but in a way where only the tanking Bear benefits. It could become the Bear tank Shield Block or something along the lines of physical damage reduction.

Duilliath · 08/05/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Giving a mitigation bonus based on strength is a bad idea. Attack power would be fine though. Remember that you'll likely have rogue gear in a few slots.

Either works for me, but this was largely kicked around cos of all the strength on tank oriented pieces to benefit other classes. Since it's the tank pieces that determine mitigation I think it'd be a lot easier to balance around a stat that -all- tanks get in the same numbers.

//edit; not to mention those 1500 Feral Attack Power staves...

cana · 08/05/08, 11:36 AM

I guess the way Blizzard goes, with DKs as a 4th class able to tank, will be to give every tanking class some sort of viability in "specialized" roles - that we need in 25 man raids - where they really shine over other classes, while every tank will be fully viable in 5man and 10man content.
I think of something like M'uru 2 for example:
Large number of AoE-Mobs for Pally (maybe DK?) tanks, some abilities that must be spellreflected by Warriors, maybe some Mobs with heavy, but low range AoE-Effects that must be tankey by a DK and killed by Ranged-DDs and 1-4 Adds that must die very fast where extreme snapaggro is needed.

edit after reading above post:
Yeah, what about a conversion of Feral AttackPower into armor that gets multiplied by Thick Hide?

Snarley · 08/05/08, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Duilliath

Sounds cool - though I'd be thinking more along the lines of a passive 'block/absorb' value on thorns than increased damage (not that you'll hear me complaining about either). Duration would have to be upped dramatically though. Imagine Supremus WotLK version which is 20 minutes of boredom, except no chance to shift out.
I don't quite see your suggestions working with a Resto/Balance druid casting them on a tanking Druid. That'd be kind of silly (and possibly downright flukey with the new Brambles talent).

Yea, maybe thorns is not the best vehicle to use to help us with our new mechanic since it seems that armor will no longer be our strong point in wrath.

But if it's some sort of passive talent that is bear centric (and high in the tree so that it wont be used to benefit resto/balance) that provides the benefits from strength that I mentioned above it might still be plausible.

Garanthir · 08/05/08, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Snarley

Yea, maybe thorns is not the best vehicle to use to help us with our new mechanic since it seems that armor will no longer be our strong point in wrath.

But if it's some sort of passive talent that is bear centric (and high in the tree so that it wont be used to benefit resto/balance) that provides the benefits from strength that I mentioned above it might still be plausible.

Str as a main Druid tanking stat worries me, will trinkets, rings, neck, and stave contain enough stats? I mean as it is now we gain stats from every slot, not 6.

Snarley · 08/05/08, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Garanthir

Str as a main Druid tanking stat worries me, will trinkets, rings, neck, and stave enough contain enough stats? I mean as it is now we gain stats from every slot, not 6.

Well, strength is also desired by DKs for parry (correct me if I am wrong, but warriors benefit from str via parry as well right?) so I cant imagine that they wouldnt itemize those other slots we will be sharing with the other tanking classes with strength.

They just really need to nail whatever mechanic they are going to give us if they are taking away our "king of armor" crown.

Lord BEEF · 08/05/08, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Snarley

Well, strength is also desired by DKs for parry (correct me if I am wrong, but warriors benefit from str via parry as well right?) so I cant imagine that they wouldnt itemize those other slots we will be sharing with the other tanking classes with strength.

Hate to state the obvious, but 8 of our 16 gear slots won't be shared with other tank classes.

We'll likely see strength on feral tier gear, but everything else leather will likely be agility + attack power.