Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 65

Pzychotix · 09/05/08, 4:50 PM

Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne

If your healers always run OOM, you die and never kill the boss. You have a 100% chance of auto dying, the other tank does not.

If you have a random chance of getting gibbed but your healers don't run OOM, you still have a chance of killing the boss.

I don't think OOMing has been a problem all expansion.

Maybe during RoS, but that's kinda the fight.

Again, 5% difference is 600 armor. Do you actually believe that 600 armor will make or break your performance?

Merendel · 09/05/08, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne

If your healers always run OOM, you die and never kill the boss. You have a 100% chance of auto dying, the other tank does not.

If you have a random chance of getting gibbed but your healers don't run OOM, you still have a chance of killing the boss.

On the other hand relying on random chance to beat a boss is far more frustrating than knowing you just need more gear to beat a boss.

For example the gorefiend fight. if you had a raid that had the DPS to kill him but 10 people you knew would always fail constructs. if you don't have any of those 10 picked you win, if they get picked you loose. if on the other hand you could replace those 10 people with 10 under geared people that always could do constructs but now your DPS is too low to kill him in time. Relying on chance you might beat him but it will be far less frustrating in the long run to get better gear for the people you know can handle the gimmick.

Personally I prefer having an obtainable goal, aka gaining more gear, needed to win a fight over just praying X does not happen each week.

I also don't believe that they are planing a disparity in the tanks that wide. At worst, assuming were a mitigation aka. OOM tank to a degree, a guild using an avoidance tank may win to luck a week or two sooner but will be shakey for a long while till gear gets better. A guild using a mitigation tank may take a little longer to have the MP5 to not go OOM but once they have it it should be steady and consistent. this is assuming that healers runing OOM is why you are failing not some other reason.

TheNameLessOne · 09/05/08, 5:29 PM

Originally Posted by Pzychotix

I don't think OOMing has been a problem all expansion.

Maybe during RoS, but that's kinda the fight.

Again, 5% difference is 600 armor. Do you actually believe that 600 armor will make or break your performance?

If want to use anything close real numbers use Tossk's or don't bother trying. The only flaw with Tossk's numbers is he doesn't count the gun, which is a huge itemization discrepancy.

Animalfury · 09/05/08, 5:40 PM

Short:
Let's play with our maths but being sure that we don't have much to worry about.

Long:
If taking 5% more dps from less avoidance and having 10% more HP put us on a state where we get 5% more heal oportunity (less overheal, more earthshield internal CDs used) we will have no problem.

The way healing is moving to LK favors time to live over avoidance:
- General: No downranking;
- Shaman: Better Earthshield, Earthliving Weapon HoT, Spirit Link;
- Druid: More and better Tree of Life HoTs;
- Paly: Beacon of Light (others getting healed don't mean the avoidance tank need healing);
- Priest: Tank usable Lightwell, a spriest can now be put on our group for Vampiric Embrace with changes on group->raid buffs;

Our tanking improvements:
- Our armor and stm scale much better than theirs and their defense rating scale much better than ours. As before and still fine;
- We was the tanks without inspiration/ancestral healing (that tends to go up with more critical on new healing talents), now we are much better;
- We was the crushed tanks, now we are much better;
- We lost item points on res, int, mp5 and healing, now we are better;
- Probably Blizzard will see leather as shared loot, not just rogue loot usable by druids, and make leathers with a little higher stm, agi, expertise %. But this is unknow;

Improving if needed:
- As the difference tends to be little, any % change they do will put us in line. So it is ease to change;
- An option to them is improve thick hide, as with the last changes on balance top, no sane resto will waste points on feral tree for pvp or whatever;
- 'If we don't balance the 4 tanks, we are idiots' and they don't want to be called idiots =);

loos · 09/05/08, 6:33 PM

I noticed this post over on the live forums. It was post #13 but it got deleted. Since so many people here enjoy doing the math (or at least seem to), can anyone dissect this bit of math about Ferocious Bite and tell me how correct it is? Also, is there any similar speculation for rip elsewhere on the net for level 80 druids?

... At 6K AP

FB will HIT for [(6000 x 0.35) + 1570] x 1.1 = 4037 base damage.

Specced for Feral Agression = 4037 x 1.15 = 4642 damage

With T6 bonus + FA = 4642 x 1.15 = 5339 damage

Bonus damage is 0.00244 x AP +9.4 = (.00244 x 6000) + 9.4 = 24.04 damage per energy. 65 energy gives 1562.6 damage, or 1719 with Naturalist.

So Base FB with a full energy bar hits for 1719+4037 = 5756 damage

Fully buffed HIT = 5339+(1719 x 1.15 x 1.15) = 7612.3 damage.

Specced for PI, Max FB crit = 7612.3 x 2 x 1.1 = 16,747 damage on an unmitigated target. Using an OoC proc AND a full energy bar, is stupid, but it would net you an additional (35 x 24.04) x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.15 = 1224 on a hit, or 2692.8 on a crit.

So, an FB crit with 6K AP, specced 5/5 FA and 5/5 PI, with T6 bonus, full energy bar and an OoC proc, would land for 19439 damage on a target with zero armor and zero resilience

On a soft target with 25% mitigation from armor, and full resilience giving another 25% crit damage reduction, FB would crit for 10,934. Still significant.

Schnigges · 09/05/08, 7:28 PM

The math is correct. Too bad i'm not 75 on the server yet for Savage Roar or I could've tested it, easy to reach 6k like that. Ferocious Bite got buffed alot. Remember nobody specs for FA and you surley won't be having 4t6 so it's more like 14.7k.

• sadris · 09/05/08, 7:33 PM

They removed the extra 9.4 damage per extra energy

Oaken · 09/05/08, 9:33 PM

Shoulder enchants are now available. And the tanking enchant is...

Inscription of Kings - Permanently adds 20 defense rating and 15 dodge rating to a shoulder slot item. Can only enchant your own items and doing so causes them to become soulbound.

I'm certainly hoping they have a shoulder enchant somewhere that does not have defense rating on it.

Tappin · 09/05/08, 9:34 PM

Originally Posted by loos

I noticed this post over on the live forums. It was post #13 but it got deleted. Since so many people here enjoy doing the math (or at least seem to), can anyone dissect this bit of math about Ferocious Bite and tell me how correct it is? Also, is there any similar speculation for rip elsewhere on the net for level 80 druids?

Unless what you care about is 'how big of a number will I see?' or 'what's the most burst can I do 10 seconds after I get 5 combo points?', the damage is not the right question. Damage per energy is.

Originally Posted by Oaken

Shoulder enchants are now available. And the tanking enchant is...

I'm certainly hoping they have a shoulder enchant somewhere that does not have defense rating on it.

Or at least continue to have other enchants where we get more value than the other tanks to balance things out. Agi and sta on leg patches or other enchants would counteract a lot of that.

Kazanir · 09/05/08, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by dukes

If you're going 10 points in Resto, surely it's worth the extra point to grab OoC? Just looking at the build I'd use as an MT, I'd probably go for this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft . The point about not picking it up, I suppose, would be as an MT you'd have enough rage to maul the majority of the time, ruling out OoC procs (assuming that Maul counts as an ability so can't proc OoC)

Maul can proc Omen of Clarity as if it were a white attack.

Cuer · 09/05/08, 10:33 PM

More thoughts from GC:

We want druids to be able to MT Naxx and Ulduar.

I really don't think they're that far off, but if I'm wrong and bears collapse on Patchwerk, we'll change the numbers until they can stand up. We'll try to change the numbers in intelligent ways so that bears are tanking Arthas too and not standing in the back healing the warrior tank.

Likewise, if cat dps is always near the bottom of the dps damage meters, we'll fix that too.

There isn't any actual armor with bonus armor any longer. It was just too problematic a stat. It does still exist on non armor pieces: the rings, necks and maybe cloaks. The way the game is designed, tanks need a certain amount of armor and we'll make sure you have it without having to resort to PvP gear or Sunwell gear. As I have said before, we can boost the bear intrinsic bonus or Thick Hide or come up with a new scalar off existing stats. This feels like a solvable problem to me.

Personally, I would love to be able to get rid of Feral Attack Power as a stat. It feels a little kludgey and it makes itemization harder because you can't share with anyone else in the game. It's like having a libram for your main weapon. But it's not going to happen for Wrath, at least not initially.

Given how explicitly they don't want bonus armor on standard armor pieces now, it seems reasonable to assume that the level 70 gear with that on will have it removed/changed sometime soon.

Kazanir · 09/05/08, 10:48 PM

It had better or we'll be using the shit for far too long.

Mijae · 09/05/08, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Schnigges

The math is correct. Too bad i'm not 75 on the server yet for Savage Roar or I could've tested it, easy to reach 6k like that. Ferocious Bite got buffed alot. Remember nobody specs for FA and you surley won't be having 4t6 so it's more like 14.7k.

These numbers are correct? I still have FB at 15% AP, they increased it to 35% somewhere?

Assuming PI and RED meta, crit multiplier = 2*1.1*1.03 = 2.266
Assuming 40% crit and R&T, multiplier = .1*FB + .9*FB*2.266 = 2.1394*FB

With 40% crit, R&T, FA:

FB (avg) = (1640 + 0.35*AP)*1.15*2.1394 = 4034.9084 + 0.8611085*AP
17% armor, FB = 3348.973972 + 0.714720055*AP
25% armor, FB = 3026.1813 + 0.645831375*AP

-----------

With 50% crit, R&T, FA:

FB (avg) = (1640 + 0.35*AP)*1.15*2.266 = 4273.676 + 0.912065*AP
17% armor, FB = 3547.15108 + 0.75701395*AP
25% armor, FB = 3205.257 + 0.68404875*AP

-----------

Rip (base) = [(534 + 0.05*AP) * 6] * 1.3 = 4165.2 + 0.39*AP
Rip (glyph) = [(534 + 0.05*AP) * 8] * 1.3 = 5553.6 + 0.52*AP

-----------

Comparisons at a few points:

FB (40% crit, 25% armor) vs Rip (base)
3026.1813 + 0.645831375*AP = 4165.2 + 0.39*AP => AP ~ 4452

FB (40% crit, 17% armor) vs Rip (base)
3547.15108 + 0.75701395*AP = 4165.2 + 0.39*AP => AP ~ 2514

FB (50% crit, 25% armor) vs Rip (base)
3205.257 + 0.68404875*AP = 4165.2 + 0.39*AP => AP ~ 3265

FB (50% crit, 17% armor) vs Rip (base)
3547.15108 + 0.75701395*AP = 4165.2 + 0.39*AP => AP ~ 1684

FB (40% crit, 25% armor) vs Rip (glyph)
3026.1813 + 0.645831375*AP = 5553.6 + 0.52*AP => AP ~ 20086

FB (40% crit, 17% armor) vs Rip (glyph)
3547.15108 + 0.75701395*AP = 5553.6 + 0.52*AP => AP ~ 11322

FB (50% crit, 25% armor) vs Rip (glyph)
3205.257 + 0.68404875*AP = 5553.6 + 0.52*AP => AP ~ 14315

FB (50% crit, 17% armor) vs Rip (glyph)
3547.15108 + 0.75701395*AP = 5553.6 + 0.52*AP => AP ~ 8466

What this basically means is that FB scales better than Rip does. Without the glyph, FB with FA and R&T will pretty much always beat Rip now. With the glyph, it will still pass it as stats increase. Note, in a full cat spec it would be easy to take FA since the tier 2 talents are all useless.

Even if the total damage is not greater than Rip, the convenience of FB being instant instead of a bleed might make it worth using also. Of course we'd still need Mangle for Shred, but would relieve the need to time it right for Rip. This doesn't count any kind of set bonuses or a glyph for FB.

Obviously the DPE will be slightly different. However, they're not very far off. While DPE generally wins, having a solid maintainable cycle with flexibility of instants might be worth it.

Krag · 09/06/08, 2:06 AM

So, according to MMO-Champion:

Infected Wounds (Tier 8 ) changed to: Your Shred, Maul, and Mangle attacks cause an Infected Wound in the target. The Infected Wound reduces the movement speed of the target by 8/17/25% and the attack speed by 8/17/25%. Stacks up to 2 times. Lasts 12 sec.

I have to think the attack speed reduction was supposed to be something like 3/6/10%, but down to stacking only twice seems like a nice change.

Cuer · 09/06/08, 3:03 AM

First look at the feral Druid set in 10 man Naxx:

It's interesting that the set has a bit of the standard stats, including a nice chunk of Expertise and a bit of Armor Penetration, but no Hit Rating.

Pzychotix · 09/06/08, 3:23 AM

Bigger problem is the fact that it uses AP over STR.

aldy · 09/06/08, 3:34 AM

I did the math out of curiosity; figured that I might as well share it.

10 man Naxx set stat totals comparison

<Stat>: <feral> ; <rogue>
Armor: 2292 ; 2292
Stam: 412 ; 355
Agi: 315 ; 318
Hit r: 0 ; 70
Exp r: 115 ; 37
Crit r: 237 ; 189
Haste r: 33 ; 138
AP: 606 ; 606
ArPen: 175 ; 0

druid sockets: 5 red, 2 yellow, 1 meta (socket bonus total: 36 stam, 4 agi)
rogue sockets: 2 red, 2 yellow, 3 blue, 1 meta (socket bonus total: 18 agi, 6 crit, 8 AP)

Also, 9105 armor on warrior and pally sets.

• sadris · 09/06/08, 3:51 AM

Originally Posted by Krag

So, according to MMO-Champion:

Infected Wounds (Tier 8 ) changed to: Your Shred, Maul, and Mangle attacks cause an Infected Wound in the target. The Infected Wound reduces the movement speed of the target by 8/17/25% and the attack speed by 8/17/25%. Stacks up to 2 times. Lasts 12 sec.

I have to think the attack speed reduction was supposed to be something like 3/6/10%, but down to stacking only twice seems like a nice change.

The important thing to note is that you are now required to have 3/3 instead of 1/3 to be able to get a full AS reduction.

Pretty much a worthless talent at this point as other classes can duplicate the same effect for less point deletion.

Korhaug · 09/06/08, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by aldy

I did the math out of curiosity; figured that I might as well share it.

10 man Naxx set stat totals comparison

<Stat>: <feral> ; <rogue>
Armor: 2292 ; 2292
Stam: 412 ; 355
Agi: 315 ; 318
Hit r: 0 ; 70
Exp r: 115 ; 37
Crit r: 237 ; 189
Haste r: 33 ; 138
AP: 606 ; 606
ArPen: 175 ; 0

If the rating translation is done for level 80 this set will give just over 14 points of expertise. Along with Primal Precision we'll have 6% to go through dodge and parry (assuming boss dodge and parry chances remain at 6.5% and 9%, respectively), which is pretty nice. Maybe they're assuming that we'll already be swimming in hit rating, since it's on almost all leather dps gear as it is.

The AP needs to be strength unless they change druid mechanics to move away from STR (which they're not going to do), and the haste rating simply needs to go.

Another interesting point in the Ferocious Bite debate - armor penetration. As it is right now, ArPen is a decent stat for us because it works on most of our damage (70%-80%, basically everything except rip). If FB becomes a viable option, ArPen suddenly becomes a lot more attractive. It might be worth it to include a reasonable ArPen value in the FB damage calculation.

Inaiwae · 09/06/08, 6:36 AM

Tanking ring and cloak from Naxx:
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ectionband.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...rmedstrife.jpg

Both have defense and strenght. I hope we will have some use for these stats.

Vaccine · 09/06/08, 6:46 AM

Originally Posted by sadris

The important thing to note is that you are now required to have 3/3 instead of 1/3 to be able to get a full AS reduction.

Pretty much a worthless talent at this point as other classes can duplicate the same effect for less point deletion.

Yer this was the point I came here to make. They obviously saw most people were putting 1/3 in the talent. As it is for 3 points I'll let the thunderclap, judgement of the just or icy touch do the job instead and use the talents elsewhere.

Disargeria · 09/06/08, 10:36 AM

Maybe they're assuming that we'll already be swimming in hit rating, since it's on almost all leather dps gear as it is.

I don't think that's going to be too much of a problem. Here's the first two leather drops we can see from Naxx:

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tackgloves.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...sofdiscord.jpg

And also this blue post from a while back:

We are aware of the concerns with reaching the hit rating cap, and will make sure Druids can pick up Rogue items to wear without exceeding that cap. This means Rogues will likely socket for hit, while Druids socket for Strength or Agility.

Kazanir · 09/06/08, 11:16 AM

Other than Kings, is there some particular reason that Str is better than AP?

Itartass · 09/06/08, 11:22 AM

I don't really follow what's meant by the part about keeping energy here:

Furor (Tier 1) changed to: Gives you 20/40/60/80/100% chance to gain 10 Rage when you shapeshift into Bear and Dire Bear Form, and you keep up to 20/40/60/80/100 of your Energy when you shapeshift into Cat Form, and increases your total Intellect while in Moonkin form by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Does it say that 5/5 points gives 100 energy from the start every time I shapshift into Cat (except powershifting)?

Moof · 09/06/08, 11:35 AM

From what I have gathered, it doesn't grant you extra energy, rather it simply lets you retain any energy you have naturally generated while out of cat form (since energy will now continue to regenerate regardless of forms)