cana

Edit: I was too slow

Just a short example:
Shifting to Bearform directly after FB (so with 0 energy). After 10s your "hidden energybar" is at 100.
Without the Furor talent all your energy is lost by the time you shift into Cat.
With the Furor talent you keep up to 100 energy of your "hidden energybar" when you shift into Cat.
There is no gain of energy like it is in live at the moment, just no loss of energy after e.g. a Rebirth or something.

 

Schnigges

SotF, which is another 6%, and makes it a 1.166 multiplier with both up.

 

Dyvozvir

There is 606 AP on our new t7, so replacing it with 303 str it will give us 50,3 extra AP.
That will be a nice change, in addition feral druids might want it over crossclass leather gear.
However we will want our set for extra bonuses anyway.

 

Duilliath

What bugs me... with that recent IW change, it's getting even harder to find all the needed talent points.
Where we could skimp on filling that one out and at least get the benefit, now it's either 0 or 3. I feel it only adds more bloat where they should really be shrinking the tree a bit.

It's quite frankly really annoying that even if I focus on 'one side' of the spec, I still find myself short some 5 talent points continuously before I can consider having all the important stuff maxed.

 

Tappin

This forgets travel time, where you would be regenerating energy.

For pvp it's great: Cyclone, root, lifebloom, cyclone again, cat (+100 energy minus any travel time). Cat, focused so bear (+10 rage), left alone after beating on a bear a while so cat (+100 energy minus any travel time).

For soloing it's nice (heal yourself running to next mob, cat form with 100 energy).

For bear form pve:
For trash pulls, the 10 energy is nice but could probably be worked around using KotJ and/or creative pulls (wrath, root, bear?)
For boss fights, you'll likely use it once. Even if you use it several times, it will likely be an insignifcant amount of rage compared to MT rage generation.
For Gruul style sponge fights it might be more useful, since you'll be rage starved.

For the cat form portion pve, it's probably not as valuable as most other dps talents:

a) On a pure dps cat fight where you don't offtank, battle rez or innervate, you would gain 0 energy.

b) A furor friendly fight would probalby look like: 1) offtank then travel 2 seconds to boss: 80 energy gained. 2) innervate someone (remembering to wait for empty energy bar) with no travel time... 30 energy gained. 3) emergency battle rez, wasting a half full energy bar, running 2 seconds to the person and 2 seconds back: 80 energy gained.

190 energy gained for, say, a 5 minute fight. About .5 energy per second. We currently gain about 12 energy per second when you factor in omen procs. So it's about a 5% increase to our energy moves, or about a 3% increase in damage?

I think it's safe to say that on pve boss style fights, furor will increase your damage somewhere as little as 0 and rarely as much as 4% for 5 talent points?

That said, I don't see that we have much choice unless they change the resto tree around. And it is tier 1. The old talent with powershifting was definitely an underranked talent for its value.

 

Mijae

Assuming the cap is still 20%, you would only need 2 points to get full affect in PvE and 1 point isn't too bad for a backup at 16%.

It might actually have too much expertise. While a good amount would be nice for bear, if we're sharing other rogue items for cat we could end up in the same spot as capping hit rating, especially since the cap is lower. It could just make Primal Precision worthless for cat.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

angral

This is a good thing (tm).

The more talent points I can replace with gear the happier I am.

 

Tappin

I would only agree with this if there were other 2 point talents nearly as valuable for you to pick up. Take your planned WotLK build including precision. Now pretend you're expertise capped. How much benefit will those 2 talent points you didn't already have (obviously not very good points or you would already have them?) get you?

Now compare that to what you'd get if they'd spent our item budget on something that didn't make the talent obsolete. According to wowhead, 10 expertise takes about 93 expertise rating at 80. If they had, say, spent that 93 points of item budget on strength instead of expertise, what 2 talent points would you gain that would be as good at that much strength?

That said, I appreciate that they gave us expertise while they gave other tanks hit rating. They gave us a stat that offers less damage taken and more dps. I just hope it doesn't make this talent obsolete. From a value standpoint, these 2 points are pretty serious 'bang for your buck'.

 

Cuer

That is quite intentional, and will continue further once all the talents are rolled out. We've only seen the bear-specific talents so far (Mother Bear and Natural Reaction.) There will almost certainly be some cat-specific talents added to boost DPS there, as well.

The developers have made it pretty clear that they want cat DPS to be relatively higher than it has been (they called it "terrible on live"), and to have bear tanks be as capable as any of the other 3 tank classes in LK. But to make them both capable of performing at that level, any individual feral character will have to choose between focusing on cat DPS or bear tanking talents. This is certainly a different sort of setup than what we've been used to from TBC. But if that means that both bear and cat forms can perform around the same levels as other classes in their respective roles, it's a good thing in my book.

 

• Falk

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/4...anstaffrk6.jpg

An upgrade from SSC staff!

 

Schnigges

First perfect Feral itemized Staff ingame actually!

 

• Falk

Not really 'perfect' in the sense of the word, you could change the Strength to Armor Pen or Expertise for DPS or tank flavors respectively (And now Agi -> Crit or Dodge, I guess ). Still, a good omen!

 

Duilliath

Not quite what I meant. With a completely bear-centric build, I am *still* short points. That can't possibly be the idea.

 

Tappin

I have to wonder what you're considering necessary bear talents. Every spec has some talents people would like, but can't grab. They're not bad, they're just 'not as good'.


WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

seems to cover most of the useful bear talents. I'm assuming the new IW is a typo and you'd need 3 points for 20%level attack reduction. I'm also assuming it will work against almost all bosses (not currently true).

Other talents that help tanking slightly:
FA offers a minor amount of mitigation at the cost of 5 talent points.
Improved shapeshifter would offer about 3% threat for 5 talent points?
Imp LotP isn't awful for a tanking build, but usually about 70%+ is overheal.
Rend a tear offers a very expensive bump in threat.
Intensity is a pretty insignificant amount of rage/threat IMO.
Tenacity offers a small chance to avoid the rare single target fear or stun?

I'm fairly certain you could skip all of the above and be a 25 man raid tank without being a mana drain or losing aggro.

Personally, I'm planning to go
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator

for a mostly tanking, sometimes dps'ing build. I'm mainly wishing I could pick up iLotP. I'm not sure what 2 points I'd drop, though. I'd also like improved shapeshifter but 5 points is too expensive, especially for a tanking build.

 

Toranshalur

But, in a pure cat dps build you can't get both primal precision and imp. lotp. If you can hit and expertise cap, primal precision is useless and so you can increase your raid utility in exchange.

incidentally, you'll need 183.6 expertise rating at 80 to be capped, assuming behind the target and a 5.6% base dodge rate for lvl 83 mobs.

 

Tappin

I don't argue that if you end up dodge-capped, you should drop the talent. Based on our armor, it looks like it will be easy to drop at least one of those points once we get our first set of gear completed. Until then, it's a pretty solid talent?

 

• Astrylian

Are you guys forgetting the other effect of Primal Precision? Or are you assuming you're going to be hit-capped too? I'm not seeing much hit rating around. Zero on the Naxx10 set, and little on the other leather pieces I see so far. And I doubt it'll be worth gemming hit rating. It's not a huge bonus, but it means that at least you won't break your cycle by more than 1sec when you do fail to hit.

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Mijae

Base dodge rate is 6.5% for a boss. That's 148 rating with primal precision or 214 without it.

The current items available have lots of expertise (and haste) and barely any hit rating.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

Phorage

Good news for nightelves:

Quickness: reduces the chance to be hit by melee or ranged attacks by 2%


The tauren one:

Endurance: now scales based on base health, to be tuned to approximately a 5% heath increase if the player were wearing green quality gear

 

Toranshalur

oh thanks for those numbers. I dunno about the hit rating problem. Blizzard stated we're sharing rogue gear so hopefully there'll be some off-set pieces around. these, for example Plus you might even gem for hit if it gives you 2 talent points.

 

halmmar

I assumed we'd get a fair amount of hit rating on wrist,belt, boots and jewellery (and expertise on the other parts to keep either from getting capped too easily). But there just isn't enough epic pieces to base this assumption on. There's a few greens/blues with it, and the jewellery seems to be loaded with hit.

 

Korhaug

Yes, it's good new for night elves, but bad ones for taurens.

5% in green gear means that the bonus quickly drops in relative value as you gear up (as the bonus is based on base health). I imagine it'll be around 3% in Naxx gear, and then quickly drop to insignificance.

 

• Daboran

To me, it implies that Powershifting to gain 40 energy is now not possible - you will gain only the energy ticks that you would have got if you stayed in Catform (assuming 5/5) . Anyone care to confirm this?

 

gnoop

I'm not sure that the downranking loss will fully push healers to use mana-efficient spells. I already watch Priests spam their max rank Flash Heal as their primary healing spell. Paladins will probably also look to FoL. Partly, it's an issue of the healers adjusting their style of healing to the tank rather than a one-size-fits-all approach. Partly, it depends on what's done with mana regen. If things are such that a Priest can spam Flash Heal and Renew all day while only needing an innervate every so often thanks to consumables and regen capabilities within the raid, they're likely to continue doing so.

Honestly, in that case, it almost doesn't matter if the Druid tanks damage is a bit different than the Warriors. The healers will just heal through it unless there are other factors in raid encounters that make such a thing unappealing. I suspect that there will not be such factors but Naxx was only just released and there's more to be done there.

 

Tappin

Confirmed. With the new furor, powershifting is dead.

With furor, ignoring energy gained because of latency:
If you're in cat form with 0 energy and shift to cat form, you'll have 0 energy.
If you're in cat form with 80 energy and shift to cat form, you'll have 80 energy.
If you empty your energy bar and spend 8 seconds in any form and then shift to cat, you'll have 80 energy.

Without furor, any of these shifts will leave you with 0 energy.

Hope that makes more sense.