foxglove

Ah, I misunderstood. I thought "currently available gear" meant items that existed (including the staff), not only items that druids on beta were currently equipping.

One thing I thought of that might streamline the bear dimension of the tree a little would be folding iLotP into Mother Bear. It makes sense (protecting the cubs), it wouldn't compromise the "bear versus cat" specs thing, and it would reduce the bloat while still leaving plenty of other hard choices.

 

Tappin

Whether or not we need int, it's clear the int portion of HotW currently makes no sense. It might as well read 'increases your base int'. It should instead provide some mana or better yet, mana regen based on ap or stamina IMO.

And of course, we need to be able to do repeated shifts in pvp, but that's another set of gear they could still change.

 

synikal

I am just curious about the current state of feral dps. I have been reading here and several other websites and cannot see a solid answer, just more posts on tanking and aoe tanking as a bear. My friend that is in beta(survival hunter) tells me that the dps right now is very pathetic and is not like blizzard is saying they want to make it, rogue quality dps. Should I be waiting to see when they tweak dps and abilities, or have we seen the extent of what they want to do to the class. Has anyone that is playing beta now as kitty dps seen an great increase, minimal or no increase on dps in instances such as naxx or the 5 mans? I honestly hope that they enable us to be chosen to goto raids as dps, and not just a mt/ot or healer.

 

tlbj6142

From reading a recent blue post it certainly seems like Blizzard has not addressed Kitty DPS yet. And they are aware of it. One thing to consider is that until a recent build, they haven't "finished" rouges talent trees/skills. I wouldn't expect Kitty to be done until they have a solid rogue. Kind of hard to compare apples to apples if one is still a blossom.

 

Maeltne

Last I checked there were gem slots. And if you feel strongly about it, you can always sub in a single Resto piece.

Personally I like this design *MUCH* better. It lets specialists specialize and the generalists generalize.

 

loos

After going around and around on what talent spec I should build, I noticed that I kept falling back into the rut of being a hybrid. This got me to wondering what Blizzard was going to balance for 25 Man Raid MT (Bear) and 'Rogue Level' DPS (kitty) builds. Currently I'm assuming that the tree won't change much, but that individual numbers in talents will. I've come up with what I think those two specs could be and wanted to hear your opinions.

Kitty plus 3 extra points somewhere
Bear plus 1 extra point somewhere

Kitty Needs ( 18 )

• Feral Aggression (5)
• King of the Jungle (3)
• Rend & Tear (5)
• Master Shapershifter (3+2)

Bear Needs ( 20 )

• Thick Hide (3)
• Feral Instinct (3)
• Primal Precision (2)
• Natural Reaction (3)
• Mother Bear (3)
• Infected Wounds (3)
• Improved Mangle (3)

Now, these are not necessarily what I would consider the best specs to currently be, but they are what I think Blizzard is going to balance into 'Rogue Level' DPS (kitty) and 25 Man Raid MT (Bear) specs.

What do you all think?

 

• Daboran

It does however sink another nail in the coffin of hybrid playstyle. I don't much like the complete lack of intellect either.

Whilst it might make sense in the context of "you are either Cat or Bear" talent trees, not only does adding a minimal amount of intellect cost very little due to stat allocation rules it's also faintly ridiculous to run around in full tier gear with only 5k mana. 10-15 intellect on each tier piece would be much more sensible and would be an almost negligible reduction in the other stats.

 

Valerian

Really if you want int, throw one of your sockets at it. Int is absolutely useless in MT roles which would mean our gear would just be lacking compared to the other tanks. You do lose some efficiency, item point wise, socketing for int (depending on what else you would have socketed) but I'd say this is more than made up for in the increased flexibility it adds. Hybrid roles that were dramatically different (physical dps and healing for example) were rarely an efficient choice anyways. I cannot think of any encounter in BC that, as feral I'd needed to backup heal/decurse/depoison that wouldn't have just been better off if I was resto and primarilly healing/decursing/depoisoning.

 

Jone

Int is not an insignificant cost if it's counted against the total number of stats they put on my gear. Our T5 has 5 stats on 5 pieces, 6 on the legs, including armor. Warrior T5 has 5 stats on most pieces, 6 on the head and chest. Who wouldn't trade that int for expertise, defense, or dodge rating for tanking; crit, ArP, or haste for DPS?

Do any of you posting in support of int on PvE gear raid with [Elixir of Draenic Wisdom]? The alternative isn't very strong, a mere 250 health, so you wouldn't be giving up much. Yet, as cheap and easy as the int/spirit elixir is, I bet you've never used that instead of [Elixir of Major Fortitude] because it's utterly useless to a tank and close to useless to a cat, even a heavy powershifter. Even when the alternative is fairly weak, int and spirit are useless and not at all worth one of the finite number of stats each class gets on their gear.

If you insist on asking for a vestigial stat on our gear for the sake of druid tradition, please simultaneously ask for some feral talent that makes it worth something to us in PvE. If int returns to our gear without giving a single benefit to the feral forms we spend 95% of the raid in, we will not be getting it for free, we will be giving up a melee or tanking stat.

 

tlbj6142

I agree, as a Feral who has only experienced all of T4, the only time I am asked to heal is Maiden and Prince. But I have a healing kit to wear for those fights, so I have no need for int on my feral gear. Even when I'm kitty, the most I have to do is a single brez and/or innervate that certainly isn't going to cause me to OOM, especially now that powershifting dead.

Edit: Don't forget that we now regen mana faster in feral forms than we currently do in BC. I believe feral form mana regen is the same as caster form mana regen in LK. In BC, feral form mana regen is significantly slower than in caster form. Hmm, I wonder if this means that innervate will not affect mana regen while in feral form?!?!

 

kalbear

Really, if int is an issue pick up one of the blue caster staves and switch weapons when casting anything. That'll make up for the mana fairly easily.

It does make 20% int particularly weak as a talent boost, but that's about the only negative effect not having int on tier gear is going to have. Without powershifting there is no real pressing need to save a lot of mana. Especially considering that we will be regenerating mana while in forms at a higher rate and everything is based on base mana. Really, the lack of int on gear should not be the primary worry for either tanks or dps.

 

Disargeria

Hybrid playstyle and hybrid itemization is detrimental to our goals of being great main tanks and great dps. I don't want int on my gear because it doesn't help my main tanking or dps abilities. I understand the choice of a more hybrid playstyle, but if it's forced into itemization it just drags everyone else down. I think maximizing feral items is the first priority, and then if someone wants to deviate from those roles, they can change sockets and consumables.

Also, Moonglade set.

 

Nitz

Int still is necessary as a PvP stat. This is the PvP set you should worry about.

 

Pike

As many of you have already predicted, it looks like our current tier sets' stats are going to be modified.

Tanking stats updated for Wrath and Patch 3.0 - WOW Insider

 

kalbear

To be clear, they've only changed the warrior and paladin gear. Which makes sense, especially the non-tier gear for death knights.

I still have no doubt that they will be changing the BC gear but they have not done so yet. My suspicion is that there will be some more stat changes in store first.

 

Merendel

I agree that int is of marginal importance. The only reason I like it at all is it allows for a few more shifts in combination with BR or innervates or just an emergency heal on myself. However if they are removing the int from our sets the 20% int on HOTW is very pointless. Someone suggested make it increase mana or mana regen but what if they changed it to reduce the cost of shape shifts or even all spells by 20%. It has always bugged me that ferals are the ones most reliant on their shapeshifts and yet they have to spec resto to become better at shifting (AKA lower cost). What if HOTW reduced mana cost and it stacked with nat. shifter? ferals would be able to shift quite a few times even on a small mana tank.

Preferably it would be all spells as it is fairly deep in feral. The other spec's would have to give up alot to get to it. Possibly something like this. Increases Stam in bear form by 20%, AP in cat by 10%, and reduces the cost of spells by 20% for 15 seconds after leaving a feral form. that would allow ferals a few more spells despite very small mana pools. it would also limit the temptation for other spec's to pick it up as they would have to shift every 15s to make use of it. what little gain they would have from cheaper spells would be lost in what they gave up to get it.

 

kalbear

It would be good if there was a beta forum post on the uselessness of HotW as it stands with current bear itemization. I don't think that this has been made particularly clear yet.

 

foxglove

For those interested in how our Naxx sets line up with other tanks':

MMO Champion -- Tank Itemization: How Do Druids Compare?

I've cut everything but the numbers, but the post has a nice look at some of the problems and possible solutions. All classes are assumed to have the relevant tanking talents.

 

tlbj6142

It is not clear if he included weapon stats in the mix (it doesn't look like it). Not sure about the other tanking classes, but our tanking 2H has more armor than any of our set pieces, plus other stats. Seem sort of unfair to compare the tanking classes without including weapons (including range weapons for warriors).

 

Cuer

Further blue comments on the druid board; the part about the feral tree confirms what was discussed earlier, about making choices between cat and bear talents.

 

Windhuf

Is this calculation armor only? That means weapons, jewelery and cloaks aren't included?

 

tlbj6142

That may be, but as Druids, we get quite a bit of armor from our weapon, do other tanking classes? If not, the comparison is invalid.

 

Duilliath

Totally fine. I'm okay with some choices made between Cat and Bear. I am not fine with having to declaw Catform completely to spec Bear.

And what I'm totally not pleased about is having to sacrifice BEAR talents because I can't fit them all into a proper Bear spec. Take Feral Aggression for example. Or even Master Shapeshifter. There's no way to currently take those without hurting your bear performance elsewhere. Yet, those talents definitely boost your bear performance. (By a valid margin or not is another matter entirely.)

Were it in the vicinity of 100% bear, 80% cat // 80% cat, 100% bear (or 90/90) - I'd be cool with it. I'm not in agreement with 95% bear, 50% cat.

 

Deathstorm

Staff of the Plague Beast 630 armor 2H

vs

Crygil's Discarded Plate Panel 7530 armor shield

Realistically we're only going to make up lost ground on other tanks from the misc pieces like neck or rings as the armor on them will be that much more valuable to ferals but unfortunately as has already been said those pieces also include defense which isn't currently very desirable. It would be nice if we could see some gear with some hit rating, The lack of hit is confusing too.

 

Pzychotix

Note: The comparison includes shields but excludes armor on our 2 handers. Just tossing some of the extra slots results in this:
WoW Forums -> Tank Itemization: How Do Druids Compare?
Post 32:
Armor:
Druid: 27121
Paladin: 22993
Warrior: 22993
Death Knight: 22883

Block:
Paladin: 14.38%; 1030 BV
Warrior: 11.49%; 995 BV
Death Knight: Can't Block
Druid: Can't Block

Avoidance:
Death Knight: 26.23%
Warrior: 21.11%
Druid: 18.11%
Paladin: 17.62%

Health:
Druid: 14341
Paladin: 12942
Warrior: 11655
Death Knight: 10920