There are two other subtle differences between dodge and chance to be missed:

o A player cannot dodge while stunned, while the attacker can miss.
o A player cannot dodge attacks from behind, again, while the attacker can miss.

I don't think it's so easy because the equations aren't linear. For DPS classes even a 5-10% deviation can dictate who gets a raid spot - for tanks much smaller things can sometimes mean huge differences for raid success.

Each point of parry makes dodge more efficient for warriors (and vica versa). If we were to make druid agility scaling equal to warrior's scaling at lower gearing levels, that doesn't mean those same formulas will hold up when the base values are bigger.

If parry makes dodge stronger and dodge makes parry stronger, then for druid which only has dodge there needs to be some sort of formula where dodge makes dodge stronger (or something to the same effect).

This is something that's generally more evident with DPS classes. Hit and crit increase the value of spell power while spell power increases the value of hit and crit (thus forcing players to balance stats for optimal effect). A class which scales properly only with spell power (let's call this "shadow priest") instead of hit and crit must then be able to have a feedback mechanic where spell power increases the effect of spell power because otherwise the scalings just can not be equal at all gear levels. You could make shadow priests scale similar to other classes at hitcapped and 10% crit from gear but without giving them some form of exponential scaling, things just won't be the same accross multiple tiers.

WoW Forums -> WoTLK Tauren Racial Health Estimation
I guesstimated the HP increase to be worth about 60 STA, or about 40 item points

2% miss is worth about 80* item points of dodge (as someone mentioned earlier, miss is better than dodge for various reasons, but since there isn't any direct way to get +miss chance only, I used dodge instead).

In other words, taurens get half as much benefit as NE do from theirs. If NE had continued to only gain 1% miss, they'd be about equal.
Not sure what you're trying to get at.

I think you're trying to imply that combat avoidance is on a multiple roll system, when it isn't. Even if it was, it would actually make other stats less efficient.

If a warrior gets 20% parry and 20% dodge from his items, he's getting 40% avoidance total. Each 1% parry is not going to change how well dodge does. Vice versa for dodge. The only problem currently is that for each 1% dodge we get, they're getting 1.33% split across dodge/parry, or 1.58% split across dodge/parry/defense (non-adjusted for the various rating ratios). We can adjust our agi scaling such that we will always get an equal amount of dodge which compensates for the increased statpoints other tanks get.

He might be talking about the diminishing returns on dodge and parry rating (see back a few pages)? Dodge from Agi is unaffected by that.

Well, the only reasonable argument I could think of that he could be referring to is that as you rise in avoidance, each 1% of avoidance you gain does even more.

That is, +1% dodge at 50% is a damage reduction of 2%, whereas +1% dodge at 0% is only damage reduction of 1%. So, technically, gaining more dodge does increase the value of parry. It's just ignoring the fact that dodge is increasing in value right along side it.

Maybe he was combining DR on Dodge/Parry with the argument above? It's all very vague.

New patch notes are up, only changes I can see is that Berserk's CD was lowered to 3 minutes.

That's a horrid change, makes the skill pretty lackluster in PvP now. You lose the buff if you shift out to drop a root/snare, so it's going to be trivially counterable by many classes simply by rooting/snaring at the right time.

edit: The cooldown reduction is fantastic for PvE, no doubt, but it didn't need to be balanced by killing its PvP use =/

edit2: It now also explicitly states "You cannot use Tiger's Fury while Berserk is active." on the tooltip, so that was intentional and not a bug.

edit3: Mother Bear got renamed to Protector of the Pack (sadface) though nothing else about it seems to have changed. I'd assume it's finally been implemented though.

Buffs stick through shapeshifts. That includes Berserk, Dash, etc.

As of last week's build they didn't. I've tested personally with Dash and Berserk.

Really? I distinctly remember reading other beta posters saying that Dash stuck through shapeshifts. =/

Oops misread tooltip.

They nerfed the CC immunity to compensate for the lowered cooldown. Pvp testing will tell whether this was really justified, or if some more immunity needs to come back.

Berserk gives bear form a great tanking cooldown and definitely a nice use to give us the burst that is needed in PvP. However, it is rather unimpressive for sustained dps.

Comparing Berserk vs OoC as a global energy increase:

Assuming you use every point of energy gained, berserk essentially doubles your current energy and any regenerated during it's duration. You never want to cap at 100 energy and chances are you wont use all of it, so I'll assume a best case around 90 energy and used on every cooldown. You also wont be able to use the last few milliseconds of energy regenerated.

(10*14.5 + 90) / 180 = 1.31 energy / sec


OoC has been stated to be changed to scale with haste, with a procrate at around 6.67%. The worst case would be no haste and a relatively low amount of hit/exp (say 90% hit chance). Assuming you always use Shred on OoC procs:

OoC * hitChance / weaponSpeed * (HitEnergy*hitChance + MissEnergy*(1-hitChance))

(3.5/60) * .9 * (42*.9 + 8*.1) = 2.03 energy / sec

With just windfury (120% haste) and a moderate amount of hit/exp (say 95% hit):

(3.5/60) * .95 * 1.2 * (42*.95 + 8*.05) = 2.68 energy / sec


With gear haste and full raid buffs, OoC is easily 2-2.5 times more beneficial to sustained DPS than Berserk. This is after the cooldown reduction too. Perhaps OoC is just too good and unfair to compare against. By my initial modeling it is still the second best dps talent.

Note: KotJ is 2 energy per second, but costs 3 talent points.

Edit: Actually Berserk would be the 3rd best talent, Shredding Attacks is second.

Well, you didn't calculate increased damage done by Berserk when stacked with heroism and/or trinkets or Hysteria etc. I think this would at least do a lot to close the gap with the lowest OOC assumption.

Heroism gives haste now which has no impact on Berserk. It actually benefits OoC much more.

Stacked abilities like Hysteria or AP trinkets would increase it's value. However, that would only be if the cooldowns are timed exactly equal. That's a bit unlikely though considering Berserk is a 3 minute cooldown and most others are 2 minutes. So, it might get the benefit of every other use. Averaging uses would still give a slight increase to Berserk compared to OoC, but OoC can proc during it also.

Sorry, this might just be me being dumb and missing something obvious, but I can't see where you're factoring in OoC's 10 second internal cooldown.

edit: I can't believe I've missed this. Source.

Just wondering about this not being able to use TF during berserk thing; does that mean that if you pop TF and then berserk a few seconds later the TF buff is removed from you?

I'm hoping not, seems like the clause is in there just to stop ludicrous pvp bursting, but you never know...

You know I cant see why in the world they don't just make KotJ a 1 point talent, or even combine it with something. (I do like just a 1 point talent better though.) It would help clear up some clutter it the tree. I'm not talking any drastic changes atm, although I do have major problems with feral right now, just to thin down the tree a bit.

on another topic I hate what they are doing with the feral tree at the moment. If I wanted to have to chose a spec to tank or DPS, I'd have rolled a warrior. Basically what they are doing right now is saying, ya you can spec for bear, and take these talents, oh and also not have gear that is optimized for you and is full of wasted stats unlike warriors. Or you can spec for cat, not come near what a rogue or DPS warrior can do, again not have optimized gear, like they do and be a shitty tank just like a DPS warrior with some tank gear. It's rediculous.

Edit also here are some reasons behind making KotJ 1 point. Assuming a Cat build that looks like this: here
Having those 2 extra points allows you to chose to put points into ILotP, NI, or even Brutal Impact.

As a bear build: Here
Where in the world do I put this last point? Oh look If KotJ was 1 point, that would be perfect!

WoW Forums -> TBC gear changed. No more extra armor.

No more bonus armor on BC items.

Even at 3min cooldown, Beserk still doesn't impress me as a top tier talent. They're trying to do too much with it and it's lacklustre as a useable PvE talent when you consider the duration of boss fights. For siutations like Muru adds where it potentially would be useful, you can use it twice if you're lucky.

The changed IW is also less than impressive. In practical PvE terms it's still going to be better to get another class to debuff attack speed. To me there's no point in having it at less than 3 points - I may as well use 1-2 points elsewhere.

If you look at encounters in simple terms, Feral either needs to maintank, offtank or dps. At present we can do the first two very well, the last acceptably (to support-class levels) meaning that on fight's where only one maintank is required it's often not worth the hassle of replacing the Feral for a "pure" dps class.

I realize things are still being worked on, but at present I can see raid time being wasted with me respeccing much more and being summoned back to the instance.

New T6 feral stats.

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6043/t68926cc6.jpg

No more soloing group quests in bear I guess.

What kind of dps numbers are other classes estimating? My modeling shows our new values to be pretty decent, but of course it's always relative to everyone else.