You do realize that Mother Bear (or Protector of the Pack like it's called now I believe) is also giving you magic mitigation which you did not have before, right? So it's not really fair to say you need to dump 3 points in there just to be even.
Well, yes and no. With the changes to T6 and dodge diminishing returns, I need the new talents (Mother Bear, Natural Reaction) in order to get back to near the same level of time-to-live. Assuming 12% damage reduction from Mother Bear, I estimated that I'll be taking about 7% more physical damage and of course 12% less magic damage; and the 6% dodge from Natural Reaction more or less makes up for the lost dodge due to DR. Are these good changes in the long run? Probably. However, it still is pretty much required to take those points at 70 if I want to continue tanking in Sunwell.
Edit: Of course, Blizzard really did need to nerf T6 in order to add Mother Bear; we'd have been ridiculously strong tanks otherwise.
The side effect I don't like is that I have to give up my points in Resto to get that tank spec and cripple somewhat my cat DPS, which is disappointing. I liked seeing that orange bar in the top 3 or so.
Originally Posted by halmmar
Not to mention the ability to use things like healthstones, ironshield potions and benefit from ancestral fortitude/inspiration.
The huge array of cooldowns we can use to tank bosses during enrage phases / survive burst damage is greatly improved (especially since incoming damage will be more predictable).
Well--I already had the ability to use healthstones and potions, albeit only when the GCD was up. And doesn't the new "potion sickness" sort of declaw whatever benefit we might get from easier consumable use in forms? Edit: I do agree that having a use for Inspiration is nice; it always annoyed me a bit that one part of my healer's heals was wasted on me but not the prot tanks (even if being armor capped made me the preferred tank for a lot of encounters).
I was looking at this Glyph last night on Beta and I think this would be a way to save a few talent points by not using Improved Mangle(if anyone is). In Cat form with the Glyph it appears to be an obvious DPS bonus via an 18 second duration. I was thinking that it also might be a way to save points in Bear form too. I guess it would be a comparison of Mangle more often vs Maul/Swipe/Lacerate more often, but possibly buffed with other "Cat" form talents picked up with the saved points.
Does that make sense? I am having an extremely hard time putting this thought in to words today.
Note - if my calculations are right, our threat isn't nearly enough to keep up with dps. Have they made more changes to threat other than making the bear bonus passive? I remember hearing something about changes to give passive blessing salvation also?
Mijae: They "baked in" the threat from talents into Warriors and Paladins. They DID NOT do this for Bears. Supposedly, they adjusted bear dps upwards, to increase our threat to comparable levels [i.e. talent increases swipe damage and base damage values were supposedly increased]. Color me skeptical, but I'm certainly open to seeing figures. Maybe I can get our Warrior MT to do some threat tests with me.
Mijae: They "baked in" the threat from talents into Warriors and Paladins. They DID NOT do this for Bears. Supposedly, they adjusted bear dps upwards, to increase our threat to comparable levels [i.e. talent increases swipe damage and base damage values were supposedly increased]. Color me skeptical, but I'm certainly open to seeing figures. Maybe I can get our Warrior MT to do some threat tests with me.
They baked in the threat for bears as well. This was not mentioned in patch notes but was confirmed from blizzard comments. All 'improved' versions were brought as baseline, making druid threat in bear form a stock 45% increase.
I was looking at this Glyph last night on Beta and I think this would be a way to save a few talent points by not using Improved Mangle(if anyone is). In Cat form with the Glyph it appears to be an obvious DPS bonus via an 18 second duration. I was thinking that it also might be a way to save points in Bear form too. I guess it would be a comparison of Mangle more often vs Maul/Swipe/Lacerate more often, but possibly buffed with other "Cat" form talents picked up with the saved points.
Does that make sense? I am having an extremely hard time putting this thought in to words today.
If I understand you right you're saying that we would be able to leave Improved Mangle at 0/3 and spend those points on other threat improving talents since we could extend Mangle's duration with the glyph. The problem with that way of thinking is that we don't use mangle for the debuff (at least not while tanking), we use it because it's our highest threat per rage attack. Lowering its cooldown allows us to use it more often, leading to improved threat generation. The duration of its debuff is irrelevant.
Why they did not include it in the existing passive tanking buffs I can only guess that it is because Righteous Fury currently only increases holy threat while the new buff increases all threat even for paladins.
Why they did not include it in the existing passive tanking buffs I can only guess that it is because Righteous Fury currently only increases holy threat while the new buff increases all threat even for paladins.
I don't believe this is implemented currently; it probably was a datamined spell that doesn't actually get applied. Salvation was baked in basically to tank's abilities by increasing the threat they output, usually by increasing the damage they do.
If I understand you right you're saying that we would be able to leave Improved Mangle at 0/3 and spend those points on other threat improving talents since we could extend Mangle's duration with the glyph. The problem with that way of thinking is that we don't use mangle for the debuff (at least not while tanking), we use it because it's our highest threat per rage attack. Lowering its cooldown allows us to use it more often, leading to improved threat generation. The duration of its debuff is irrelevant.
Yes that was my thought, although I believe the debuff IS of importance in Bear form since it buffs Maul and Swipe damage. So lets say you traded 3/3 Imp Mangle to help finish out Master Shapeshifter. You're trading a reduced cooldown for a 4% buff to ALL physical damage.
I guess it comes down to how much TPS is a 4.5 sec CD Mangle vs. a 6 sec CD Mangle and increased Maul,Swipe, Lacerate, and white damage?
Yes that was my thought, although I believe the debuff IS of importance in Bear form since it buffs Maul and Swipe damage. So lets say you traded 3/3 Imp Mangle to help finish out Master Shapeshifter. You're trading a reduced cooldown for a 4% buff to ALL physical damage.
I guess it comes down to how much TPS is a 4.5 sec CD Mangle vs. a 6 sec CD Mangle and increased Maul,Swipe, Lacerate, and white damage?
If we just compare those two talents and figures I have from live servers...
I do around 1100 TPS (700 DPS). A 4% DPS increase is around 40 TPS (a bit lower than a 4% threat increase due to static values on skills).
Each mangle is around 1380 threat. A Swipe is 470 threat (T6 bonus, similar to 2.3 talents). If you go from 3 * (1 Mangle 3 Swipe) to 4*(1 Mangle 2 Swipe), you will generate 8370 vs. 9280 threat (over 12*1.5 = 18 seconds). That's a 50 TPS increase (on single targets).
So Improved Mangle should be better for threat, and will cost you fewer talent points than master shapeshifter. Not to mention, you can skip OoC if you want to be a pure bear.
If we just compare those two talents and figures I have from live servers...
I do around 1100 TPS (700 DPS). A 4% DPS increase is around 40 TPS (a bit lower than a 4% threat increase due to static values on skills).
Each mangle is around 1380 threat. A Swipe is 470 threat (T6 bonus, similar to 2.3 talents). If you go from 3 * (1 Mangle 3 Swipe) to 4*(1 Mangle 2 Swipe), you will generate 8370 vs. 9280 threat (over 12*1.5 = 18 seconds). That's a 50 TPS increase (on single targets).
So Improved Mangle should be better for threat, and will cost you fewer talent points than master shapeshifter. Not to mention, you can skip OoC if you want to be a pure bear.
Are those rotations with or without Maul? I should also add what prompted me to think about all this was trying to have a single PvE spec and try to give up as little as possible on both sides. I am still clinging to simply swapping gear instead of specs when we change roles.
Are those rotations with or without Maul? I should also add what prompted me to think about all this was trying to have a single PvE spec and try to give up as little as possible on both sides. I am still clinging to simply swapping gear instead of specs when we change roles.
Maul doesn't matter one way or another in this. A 6 second or 4.5 second mangle will keep the mangle debuff up, and Maul doesn't take any GCD.
In addition to this, the damage that mangle is doing is going to be buffed with talents in WotLK, so the effect of more mangles should be even more greatly pronounced.
That all being said, when looking at the analysis of my own threat parses, I notice that mangle is about 20% of my total threat, and lacerate & swipe is also about 20% of my total threat. Increasing the number of mangles by 33% is going to reduce the number of swipes/lacerates by a similar 33%. This may not end up being that great a talent unless mangle is significantly buffed.
Maul doesn't matter one way or another in this. A 6 second or 4.5 second mangle will keep the mangle debuff up, and Maul doesn't take any GCD.
In addition to this, the damage that mangle is doing is going to be buffed with talents in WotLK, so the effect of more mangles should be even more greatly pronounced.
Wouldn't Maul benefit from the 4% increase in damage with Master Shapeshifter?
Edit: I replied too quickly and missed your last statement. I agree that it might turn out to be a "low priority" talent, especially for those who attempt to build a "multi role" spec.
I was looking at this Glyph last night on Beta and I think this would be a way to save a few talent points by not using Improved Mangle(if anyone is). In Cat form with the Glyph it appears to be an obvious DPS bonus via an 18 second duration. I was thinking that it also might be a way to save points in Bear form too. I guess it would be a comparison of Mangle more often vs Maul/Swipe/Lacerate more often, but possibly buffed with other "Cat" form talents picked up with the saved points.
Does that make sense? I am having an extremely hard time putting this thought in to words today.
The mangle glyph is pretty much entirely a cat glyph as I see it. It would certainly be useful--managing the "out of synch" Rips and Mangles is a bit of a headache for me on the PTR. It'd definitely be a good choice for cat because it:
Increases DPS by allowing us to "convert" Mangles to Shreds
Eliminates the worry of Mangle dropping mid-cycle (risk of non-mangled Rip ticks, snarled-up timing of TF and FB, etc.)
Makes cat more playable and reduces tunnel vision
My only concern is that I am pretty sure I want to get both the Frenzied Regeneration and Swipe glyphs, leaving only one DPS glyph (as I mentioned earlier). If they keep the system and mats as they currently are, I might be carrying around stacks of Swipe and Mangle glyphs in my raid bag. (I don't particularly want to make my raiding main a scribe just for an extra inscription slot, if indeed that becomes an option.)
Originally Posted by Garanthir
Wouldn't Maul benefit from the 4% increase in damage with Master Shapeshifter?
Edit: I replied too quickly and missed your last statement. I agree that it might turn out to be a "low priority" talent, especially for those who attempt to build a "multi role" spec.
See Mijae's post with TPS values per point for each talent (back a few pages). The spreadsheet in Mijae's signature also has TPS calculations based on the stats/gear you input, with a couple "default" level 80 setups.
Personally, based on the preliminary TPS numbers, I decided to move those 5 points (Natural + Master Shapeshifter) into Feral talents that have about-equal Cat utility and better TPS (Predatory Instincts or Rend and Tear, depending on your preference).
Last edited by foxglove : 09/16/08 at 7:37 PM.
Reason: added link to cited post since it's 10 pages back already
Wouldn't Maul benefit from the 4% increase in damage with Master Shapeshifter?
It would and does, kinda; maul has about 1/4th of the total threat it produces as innate, so you get a bit less than a 1% increase in TPS per 1% increase in DPS. In any case, the point is reasonable, but I'm presuming that 1100TPS is using maul. That's about what mine is on fights with unlimited rage.
Mijae, could you please post the stats you are basing your calculations on ?
Sorry I don't have my current spreadsheet with me atm, but it has not varied to widely from what I have saved as "80 rare" and "80 epic" sets in what I posted. I think I added [Commendation of Kael'thas] and [Shadowmoon Insignia] for the 80 rare MT numbers.
I'm sure it's slightly off on some base values (crit and dodge) since i just added in a couple percent before. Previously these were identified as 24 agility for crit and around -35.15 dodge rating (I can't remember where I got these value from), but I'm sure this would have changed. I can't remember the exact differences I saw on the PTR last night, but they did not match. I was able to confirm diminishing returns on dodge rating, haven't figured how to implement it yet. I can calculate a best fit curve now, but that won't address how it scales to 80. I'll also need to identify how the base values change with level.
I assumed Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire would be converted to rating also, but testing shows this has not happened yet if it will.
Originally Posted by Tap
Mijae, are your Avoidance values based against mobs that are level 80, or versus ??? level bosses?
Numbers are based on level 83s. Again, base avoidance could be off and I have not accounted for diminishing returns on dodge rating - it's not huge but is there.
Targets are selectable on the sheet, I estimated boss armor to increase proportional with current boss mitigation values (to give equal damage reduction percent before ArP). However, I should probably add seperate generic high and low armor bosses ("Boss Average" takes a value 1/3 the way between low and high). My PvP targets were based on average armory data for relatively high rated players, so those have not been updated either.
Originally Posted by kalbear
They baked in the threat for bears as well. This was not mentioned in patch notes but was confirmed from blizzard comments. All 'improved' versions were brought as baseline, making druid threat in bear form a stock 45% increase.
Unless they've changed threat of our abilities drastically, 45% will only put us barely above dps.
Where are you seeing 5k DPS for cats? The only thing I've seen get remotely near 5k DPS on the Beta is rogues, and that's with poison being totally broken. Rogues aren't going to get 5k DPS, and neither are cats.
Agility is IIRC 40 agi to 1% dodge. It's stated upthread.
I don't believe this is implemented currently; it probably was a datamined spell that doesn't actually get applied. Salvation was baked in basically to tank's abilities by increasing the threat they output, usually by increasing the damage they do.
I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, however:
More recently in the beta, we did a similar thing with Salv. We pulled Salv as a blessing some time ago, so we baked even more threat into Defensive Stance (and equivalents for other tanks).
If this makes it easier to understand, imagine that everyone except the tank always has Perma Salv up and every tank has Defiance as a core ability.
Where are you seeing 5k DPS for cats? The only thing I've seen get remotely near 5k DPS on the Beta is rogues, and that's with poison being totally broken. Rogues aren't going to get 5k DPS, and neither are cats.
Agility is IIRC 40 agi to 1% dodge. It's stated upthread.
My spreadsheet is estimating 5K dps in full Naxx gear (3300 tps was also full Naxx tank gear). I highly doubt anyone is there yet. The ArP difference from sunder will reduce it some (potentially a few hundred dps), as well as if those base numbers are lower (possibly another 100 dps or so). However, I'm not yet counting in period energy gains from things like Replenish. I'm estimating 2k dps just from white damage alone. I'd be more than happy if anyone can point out other errors in my spreadsheet logic.
I was refering to base dodge, not the agi to dodge ratio. Blues have posted they raised our base crit and dodge 5%. This is in addition to some other base number, I'm guessing level based. Again, previously this was actually a negative number for dodge.
Unless they've changed threat of our abilities drastically
They did. Testing over in the Warrior WOTLK thread has shown that warriors have a 207.35% threat modifier in defensive stance. It's very safe to assume you will have the same in bear stance.
Okay, Mijae - according to your spreadsheet a cat should be doing about 3800 DPS with lvl 80 rare items, right? That's nowhere near where they are on live. That alone tells me something is off. I'll try and look into it more, but your cycle is shred/mangle to 4/5, rip, shred/mangle to 5, FB, shred/mangle to 5, SR? Is that correct? And you've also got 4pT6 as a bonus?
Okay, Mijae - according to your spreadsheet a cat should be doing about 3800 DPS with lvl 80 rare items, right? That's nowhere near where they are on live. That alone tells me something is off. I'll try and look into it more, but your cycle is shred/mangle to 4/5, rip, shred/mangle to 5, FB, shred/mangle to 5, SR? Is that correct? And you've also got 4pT6 as a bonus?
There's got to be something off here.
I tried playing with Toskk's WotLK calc to compare my results. With the exception of OoC, our numbers are quite similar. Turning off OoC and all the mechanics he does not have implemented, for a 4 Rip / 2 SR rotation my sheet shows 30 dps higher (3696 vs 3726). With OoC mine goes up to 4225, Toskk's to 4102 (123 diff). Turning on all other mechanics puts mine up to 4872, then switching the cycle puts it over 5k.
Mechanics I don't see in Toskk's current calc: Ferocious Inspiration, Blood Frenzy, Improved Moonkin Aura, Bloodlust, Relentless/Chaotic Meta Gem, and Berserk. Assuming I have these implemented even remotely close, 5k dps does not seem unreasonable. Seeing this does give me slightly more confidence in the estimates.
I did however notice I haven't implement the R&T interaction with Rip uptime. Right now it assumes the target is always bleeding (which should generally be true).
Yes, those values were with full raid buffs before SR.
An interesting point... I updated the support for armor penetration of SA and FF being applied before ArP rating. The results make ArP flip-flop from the best stat to the worst (even lower than haste) when SA is applied. So, I've swapped all ArP gems to all Str gems and a few pieces of gear.
It's also quite interesting to see how stat equivalence points can change drastically now when comparing the next 1 stat point versus the next 20 points (new epic gem amount). It also seems there are many points where what the best stat is changes depending on current stats. This can cause large differences in gear spreadsheets using this type of setup (Rawr does not).
I've updated my base crit and dodge values based on testing from PTR. These might change slightly at 80. Can anyone post naked, untalented base agi, dodge and crit at 80 (and for NE at 70)?
09/16/08, 3:03 PM
