I've laboriously searched all 80 pages of this thread and haven't seen much discussion of the "sweeping strikes" part of Berserk. Has anybody done much testing with this? Does it seem useful? Personally, I've never wanted a multi-target mangle, although I have hoped for a multi-crit swipe.
One question I'm really curious about: If you're tanking next to a CC'd mob and you hit Berserk, does your mangle pop the sheep? Obviously if our "oh shit" button has the potential to break CC on nearby mobs, it's much less useful. Even if CC'd mobs are not affected, if it could pull a mob off another tank it's very dangerous.
Is anybody really excited about the multi-mob part of Berserk -- or about Berserk in general, now that they've nerfed the "Beast Within" part of it?
When I started out doing instances in the beta I was giddy over Swipe hitting 5 targets and Berserk making me feel really capable. However the feeling faded fast. The AoE component to Berserk is lackluster for what we really need it for; tanking big packs of mobs. Since it uses the same targeting mechanic as Swipe (at least that’s my observation) and the fact that you're probably better of using Swipe every GCD than Mangle it loses a lot of value. Sure it's awesome for small packs but compared to the other 3 tanking classes our ability to manage big packs of mobs is lacking. Yes you could micromanage Berserk and probably put the extra Maul and Mangle hits to some use, perhaps not wasting (if you want to look at it that way) too many hits on mobs that’s already “tagged” by Swipe spam. The thing is that it will take a lot of you to approach being equal to the other tanking classes which have been given / already have really awesome AoE moves which does a lot with little effort or number of GCDs used.
Another factor that makes our AoE tanking less capable is the chance of Berserk being used as a fear break or LS. Basically any fight involving loads of mobs, fears or a big risk for MT death puts us at a real disadvantage. Berserk needs to spawn multiple abilities with separate cooldowns. Having a skill with multiple effects depending on form, with shared cooldown, be balanced for both PvE and PvP is just asking for trouble.
With the recent blue posts quoted earlier in the thread and the data on PvP gear being about the same as PVE gear for tanking I’m starting to get really worried. A split talent tree, itemization issues, AoE threat issues, lack of abilities and the implications of the shared cooldown on Berserk makes me think WotLK will lead to ferals going into a OT / cat role in an optimal raid. Blizzard will probably stick to the plan and make it possible for all four tanks to MT but right now I’m sure as hell not going to cripple the raid with my sorry ass when a capable Warrior can be used instead. (Sorry for the rant paragraph).
The AoE component to Berserk is lackluster for what we really need it for; tanking big packs of mobs.
Honestly, the idea of having to blow a 3-minute cooldown to tank big packs of mobs is... disheartening.
I'm ok if druids are supposed to be the weakest AoE tank, but throwing a tiny bit of bad AoE on our 51 point talent doesn't make us good aoe tanks, it leaves us as one of the worst. The fear break and last stand parts of the talent are nice, but nothing that can't be at least partially made up by pvp trinkets or battlemaster / shadowmoon trinkets. Now that we won't need defense, we're even more free to find a good trinket for a certain fight.
They're giving warriors frenzied regeneration and in-combat charge, two of our abilities. Why not have some talents that give us some prot-pally or warrior abilities, like make frenzied regen give us a shield-wall like effect, or make enrage break fear like berserker rage, or increase the damage done by thorns when we're enraged.
The AoE component of Berserk won't suddenly put us on par with the other classes for AoE tanking, but it's not negligible either. Using nameplates and clever tab targetting, you can control large packs fairly well. Of course, you'll have to work a lot harder to achieve the same thing a Paladin does just by hitting Consecrate, and you will need more lead time. Keep in mind also that it's not just AoE Mangle, it's AoE Maul as well.
"Shared cooldowns" are definitely a concern if we end up needing to use it for two different effects in the same encounter. But (as much as we like to complain about it), I don't think fear is a prevalent enough mechanic to worry about (in TBC we had Nightbane .. and Archimonde ... I think that was it?).
So then it comes down to using it for AoE threat, or saving it for the Last Stand effect. And of course it will hurt if there ends up being an encounter where we need to use it for both, but I suppose that tradeoff will have to be made. It doesn't seem likely that they are going to drastically alter the core skill design at this stage (i.e. splitting it up or somehow implementing separate cooldowns for its components).
For trash, you should be able to use it on every second or third pull. There's also 3 min Challenging Roar in case things get hairy.
For trash, you should be able to use it on every second or third pull. There's also 3 min Challenging Roar in case things get hairy.
One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??). That is more than enough time to take out 1 mob while building threat on 2-3 more. So, that allows us to devote some one-on-one time to the root'd mob when he breaks free.
One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??). That is more than enough time to take out 1 mob while building threat on 2-3 more. So, that allows us to devote some one-on-one time to the root'd mob when he breaks free.
CC doesn't really work in a raid environment where (trash) mobs can one-shot healers if you are incapacitated when the time comes to reapply it.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
The difference I'm estimating for cat is around 3750 dps in rares and 5100 in epics. That's a 33.3% dps upgrade to epics. I suppose that might be around the same relative gain as BC, but 1250 sure sounds like a large gain.
I have been looking over your spreadsheet Mijae, and I'm a bit worried that I have chosen the wrong professions to get that 4000-5000 dps you've posted. You are using Enchanting and Jewelcrafting, which obviously for dps look to be the best professions with assault on rings and the emerald boar, possibly the best for tanking as well with the 24 stam ring enchant and prismatic gems and possibly a JC-only tanking trinket that will be added before launch (only seeing rare JC-bop atm). Granted, there may be some amazing pre-raid Leatherworking sets that will be added (they might already be but I can not seem to find any as of now) But I doubt Leatherworking and Engineering (or any other profession for that matter) will scale as well as Enchanting and JC will throughout WotLK, does anyone have any information or source (or just opinion) that can contradict this?
Also, your 80 Rare - Dps shows 4pct6... and many bt-swp items, and sadly it seems those are best-in-slot for pre-raid wotlk dps (and currently being resto in end-game raiding, it will be very hard to persuade my raid leader that I will be spending tokens on off-spec because it will help me in the expansion), will those items be the only way for us as Cat form Feral druids to be viable in Naxx-10 before drops? Will we have to come in as Bear-tanks to N-10, pray to get more drops than the other feral druids/rogues in the 2 other N-10 groups to become cat druids in Naxx-25.
This has me a bit worried about being pre 10 man ready, and might be what everyone is worried about with itemization.
Ballpark, what do the simulators/spreadsheets say for best enchant for Cat at 70 in 3.0? Using napkin math and Toskk's, it looks like Executioner may be better than Mongoose at the high end, even without using FB, which was a little surprising. I just picked up a 2nd Stanchion tonight, in case Cat and Bear want different enchants in 3.0, and it looks like they may.
One more thing I think we often forget regarding AoE pulls, is roots. We now have our own CC. Sure it only affects 1 mob and you can't renew it, but it takes 1 mob (of any type) out of the rotation for 27s (or more with a glyph??).
Personally, the type of AOE pull that worries me is the type where casting roots on 1 mob just won't cut it -- waves like the ones in Hyjal, the groups in Supremus' ramp area, the ones on the way to bloodboil, etc. Those are the groups that paladins are ideal for. Warriors can do decently well with them now using thunderclap, and will do even better when they get Damage Shield. Not to mention that they can much more safely let people AOE around them if they use vigilance and intervene with Safeguard. I don't know a lot about Death Knights (beta key plzkthx), but it sounds like they'll have good AOE tanking too.
Challenging roar on a 3m cooldown is nice, but AFAIK it isn't an AOE taunt, it just means that the mobs are locked to you for 6s, so if they can't be AOEd down in 6s they're running for the mages/warlocks.
Having said that, I think we also get Nature's Grasp with a 100% proc rate, so on 5-ish pulls we can pull with nature's grasp on, wait till a mob hits us, then back away from it. Chances are the first ones to hit you from a big group will be the melee mobs.
I guess I just have 'grass is greener' envy. I wish we had the AoE tanking niche that prot paladins have. I wish we had the spell tools that warriors have, with a silence-pull (gag order + heroic throw), spell reflect, shield slam, and imp defensive stance. I wish we had the tools to deal with fear that warriors do. I wish we had the magic tanking abilities that Death Knights will have. Basically I wish we had a real niche. Without a niche it's hard to believe that there will be much demand for ferals, at least as main tanks.
The professions are not done yet; it's hard to say which one will shape up to be the best. But given some of the tidbits we've seen, such as the Leatherworking Fur Lining - Attack Power wrist enchant, there are likely to be solid bonuses for any of the crafting professions.
As for getting items for both bear and cat form, so far there are at least 2 armor tokens for tier7-10 man available, purchased with Emblem of Heroism, which come from heroics and Naxx 10 man. Anyone interested in gearing up multiple sets of gear can run plenty of heroics once they hit 80, as can anyone, to get a jump on having level 80 epics ready for entry into Naxx. Of course, there are other generic ilevel 200 epics available for purchase with those emblems, as well.
It was recently posted that the BS socket wont stack with the LW fur. This hasn't been confirmed by an external source yet, though.
The Washington Post helps perpetuate a common and pernicious misreading of the decision, referring to "the Supreme Court’s judgment that corporations have the same rights as people when it comes to political speech." What the Supreme Court actually said is that people do not lose their free speech rights when they organize as corporations, including nonprofit interest groups as well as businesses.
Looking at the new patche changes from mmo-champion, it looks like they've nerfed Berserk (no more mangle/maul hitting 3 targets), and got around the problem of Mangle vs Trauma by modifying Shred and Maul to deal increased damage when used on targets which would take increased damage from bleeds, and taking that functionality off Mangle.
Several interesting changes for ferals in today's build... What I notice offhand:
-Mangle now just says it increases damage of bleeds; however Shred and Maul state that effects which increase the damage of bleeds also affect them. So basically Mangle and Trauma are identical effects now. Trauma Warrior = Mangle Bot. Yum.
-Predatory Instincts changed to -% damage from AoEs instead of % chance to avoid AoEs. So no more resistance to fears, stuns, etc.
-Imp LotP heals on yourself also restore 8% of your max mana. (Self-only)
-Faerie Fire (Feral) now deals [ 5% of AP + 1 ] damage and additional threat when used in Bear Form or Dire Bear Form.
-Brutal Impact also Reduces the CD of Bash by 30sec.
-Prolly something else I'm not noticing... Someone check if SR stacks with UR?
Ballpark, what do the simulators/spreadsheets say for best enchant for Cat at 70 in 3.0? Using napkin math and Toskk's, it looks like Executioner may be better than Mongoose at the high end, even without using FB, which was a little surprising. I just picked up a 2nd Stanchion tonight, in case Cat and Bear want different enchants in 3.0, and it looks like they may.
Mine currently shows them nearly equal at 70, with Mongoose very slightly ahead (2 dps - enough to just be error). If they happen to change Executioner to ArP rating (which makes more sense), Mongoose will be further ahead. For bear, I'd keep +35 agi since our attacks are too slow to keep Mongoose up.
Originally Posted by Nokiya
Also, your 80 Rare - Dps shows 4pct6... and many bt-swp items, and sadly it seems those are best-in-slot for pre-raid wotlk dps (and currently being resto in end-game raiding, it will be very hard to persuade my raid leader that I will be spending tokens on off-spec because it will help me in the expansion), will those items be the only way for us as Cat form Feral druids to be viable in Naxx-10 before drops? Will we have to come in as Bear-tanks to N-10, pray to get more drops than the other feral druids/rogues in the 2 other N-10 groups to become cat druids in Naxx-25.
This has me a bit worried about being pre 10 man ready, and might be what everyone is worried about with itemization.
While it does look like many of the end-game 70 epics will beat 80 blues, the differences isn't huge. Even some of the 70 badge gear is better than or equal to 80 blues, you should be able to get those easily. The lack of blue helms with meta sockets means even something as bad as [Helm of Assassination] is better than 80 blues.
Looking at the new patche changes from mmo-champion, it looks like they've nerfed Berserk (no more mangle/maul hitting 3 targets), and got around the problem of Mangle vs Trauma by modifying Shred and Maul to deal increased damage when used on targets which would take increased damage from bleeds, and taking that functionality off Mangle.
Wow. Not sure why they took the multi mob mangle/maul away. And on top of that havent returned the immunity to CC that it used to have. They've added a mana return to ILotP...
The Berserk change is a good one. Although, after the last 2 rounds of nerfs it needs some love to bring it back up to par for being a 51 point talent. Merely mimicking Last Stand and Adrenaline Rush with a bonus Berserker Rage thrown in isn't quite enough, although at least it's now got some focus and direction for PvE Bear. If they changed it back to clearing/immunity to all CC effects, but kept the 3 minute cooldown, it would be sufficient to make it useful and balanced for PvE DPS, tanking AND PvP =x
Having said that, the lost AoE Maul/Mangle component should go elsewhere, King of the Jungle seems like a decent choice. While Enraged, it provides the same AoE Maul/Mangle effect that Berserk used to instead of (or in addition to) increasing damage by 15%.
Whilst a lot of changes range from good to ok, there still seems to be a lack of direction overall, especially at the top of the talent tree. Not to mention the complete lack of improvements to AoE tanking now that multi-target improvements to Swipe have been removed.
Honestly, this homogenization of tanking classes seems to be affecting Feral playstyle negatively overall imo. There's no niche at present where you would prefer a Bear even marginally over another class. Whilst this may be the intention overall it's not the case with other tanking classes. With DK/Pali/Warrior they all have some advantage in a PvE raid context - and we know what that means when people start min-maxing their raids.
I am reminded of the phrase "a jack of all trades is a master of none".
More relevant to current content and the pre-release of talents - as I'm in a guild still working on Muru I'm very concerned about the changes (especially dodge) affecting my ability to tank all 3 of the adds there (afaik, Sunwell Radiance does not affect those adds)
One other thing I've noticed. Why still the (albeit slight) disparity between Demo Shout and Demo Roar? They are so close now, you may as well make them the same.
One other thing I've noticed. Why still the (albeit slight) disparity between Demo Shout and Demo Roar? They are so close now, you may as well make them the same.
One is a level 77 skill while the other is a level 79 skill. I assume this means they have slightly different budgets in terms of effectiveness.
The bleed changes, iLotP, FFF and Brutal Impact changes are really nice, now we just need a final version of Berserk and possibly some splitting of cat/bear talents to give a bit more speciality to each spec. If they split 1 or 2 of the 5 point talents into pure cat/pure bear talents, it would help to sort out cat specific/bear specific players/specs.
(2) Set: Your Rip lasts for an additional 3 seconds, and your Lacerate deals an additional 5% damage.
(4) Set: Increases the duration of Berserk by 3 seconds.
Edit:
Shamelessly ripped from MMO-Champion:
Skills
* Shred - Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Shred damage.
* Maul - Effects which increase Bleed damage also increase Maul damage.
* Bash now interrupts spell casts for 3 sec.
Talents
* Berserk (Tier 11) no longer causes your Mangle (Bear) and Maul attacks to hit up to 3 targets
* Predatory Instincts (Tier 8 ) reduces the damage taken by area of effect attacks by 3/6/9/12/15%. (Previously increased your chance to avoid them)
* Protector of the Pack (Tier 8 ) damage reduction is now at 3% for each party member across all ranks.
* Improved Leader of the Pack (Tier 7) - In addition, you gain 4% of your maximum mana when you benefit from Improved Leader of the Pack heal.
* Feral Charge (Cat) (Tier 5) - Causes you to leap behind an enemy, dazing them for 3 sec. 30 second cooldown.
* Faerie Fire (Feral) (Tier 3) now deals damage and causes extra threat while in bear form.
* Brutal Impact (Tier 2) now reduces the cooldown of bash by 15/30 sec in addition to its previous effect.
The Bash change is nice (esp with the Brutal Impact changes), Protector of the Pack is looking like a 1/3 talent now. Cat charge getting you behind a target is nice too.
For bear, I'd keep +35 agi since our attacks are too slow to keep Mongoose up.
Isn't it because the attacks are so slow that you will keep it up often enough since you can spam an instant every GCD? A Swipe should have the same chances to proc Mongoose as a normal white hit.
Originally Posted by dukes
One is a level 77 skill while the other is a level 79 skill. I assume this means they have slightly different budgets in terms of effectiveness.
They are exactly the same. You gain 1 AP reduction per level up so both end up at 411 AP reduced at level 80.
(2) Set: Your Rip lasts for an additional 3 seconds, and your Lacerate deals an additional 5% damage.
(4) Set: Increases the duration of Berserk by 3 seconds.
Note: Rip duration last for an additional 3 seconds, does it need upgrade to 4 seconds like the RIP glyph?
They are exactly the same. You gain 1 AP reduction per level up so both end up at 411 AP reduced at level 80.
That would make a lot of sense. I was just looking at the Wowhead descriptions, which only gives the skill details as trained.
Doesn't Swipe have a chance to proc things on every damaging part i.e. 4 targets hit = 4 proc chances? Primal fury acts this way at least, and (although anecdotally) things such as Hourglass and other proc-based trinkets/necks/rings seem to proc a lot while swiping. Obviously this would have less of a benefit while single-tanking something like a raid boss, but it's still worth considering.
You no longer lose the Berserk buff if you shift out while it's up, however you still lose Dash.
Originally Posted by Malazaar
Also worth mentioning is that Protector of the Pack now grants the full mitigation bonus at 1/3, additional points only get you more static AP.
Aye, I was looking at this earlier, and I couldn't understand the reasoning for it. They changed Infected Wounds to force us into putting 3 in it, and then they completely defy that same logic and change Protector of the Pack to full effect (for its main use) at 1/3 .. I can't help but feel this is an oversight or a bug.
edit2: It's not an oversight or a bug, we will have to put 3/3 in Protector of the Pack. It's just an inaccurate tooltip.
1/3 PotP only gives you 1% per party member. I was just specced 1/3 in it, and with 3 party members, I got a buff called "Guardian" that said "Decreases damage taken from all sources by 3%."
So then I respecced and put 3/3 in PotP and the tooltip now reads "Decreases damage taken from all sources by 9%." with 3 party members.
Also, range has no bearing on this, I was sitting in Moonglade whilst 2 of my party members were in Dalaran and 1 in BRD, and the buff still applied properly.
09/17/08, 6:50 PM
They've added a mana return to ILotP...
