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Old 08/22/08, 3:26 PM   #1216
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne View Post
Why is it OP in PVP?
Start fight with full bar, DPS, use KotJ, etc. Shift out to cast a heal or two. Bear-->FC, shift to cat (now with a full bar) do more DPS. Maybe I've just gotten use to the way it is now as a Feral PvP'r and see this change (along with other changes in the Feral tree) as giving me 10x the power I had before. Of course, maybe this just puts me more in-line with other classes? I don't know. And frankly, I never really cared before since I just do BG PvP to kill time (not to "win").

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Old 08/22/08, 3:54 PM   #1217
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by TheNameLessOne View Post
Why is it OP in PVP?

Rogues don't lose all their energy when they vanish, sprint or cloak. Enhancement Shamans don't lose all their mana when they go into ghost wolf. Retadins don't lose all their mana when they equip a shield.
We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:06 PM   #1218
Ravager
Piston Honda
 
Ravager's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Melthu View Post
We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.
I think the mana cost of switching in and out in forms will make abuse of this mechanic somewhat unfeasible, especially looking at the fact that the gear we'll be wearing in WotLK won't have Intellect on it.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:08 PM   #1219
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Sorry for double posting, but I just found this on Emmerald's forums. It's a very interesting observation, should these energy regen changes stick:

Agreed. Instead of powershifting straight to cat form and ending up at 40 energy + global cooldown, now we can shift out, Wrath, Moonfire, and come back with FULL energy.

Consider that case where you have 10 energy and shift out. 2 second Wrath cast = 20 energy. 1.5 second global cooldown from Moonfire = 15 energy. Furor = 40 energy. Global cooldown from shapeshifting = 15 energy. 10 + 20 + 15 + 40 + 15 = 100 exactly. Of course, this assumes you're starting from 10 energy... if you have less, you'll end up waiting a fraction of a second to be at full energy--but that means you're WASTING less due to lag. If you have more, skip one of the spells and pop back sooner.
Apparently enhancement shamans are being steered towards using spells such as lightning bolt and lava burst in their standard dps rotation. It could be that they eventually intend for us to do the same.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:10 PM   #1220
mydhrin
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Black Dragonflight
I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:11 PM   #1221
Mara
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Cenarion Circle
Build 8820 - Patch Notes - World of Raids Forums

Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
Feral Swiftness: The movement speed buff can now be used indoors.

So: that raises the question. If roots/swiftness now work indoors, is there any useful distinction between indoor/outdoor in WoW? I can't think of any reason why this distinction should be continued.

The only remaining restriction seems to be on the arena/honor gear.

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

Time for it to be removed. Multiple classes have speed boosts now and snares. Allowing druids tier gear to provide the movement speed bonus (indoors and outdoors) doesn't seem overpowered and seems quite a logical extension given the other changes already made.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:15 PM   #1222
Ravager
Piston Honda
 
Ravager's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Mara View Post
Build 8820 - Patch Notes - World of Raids Forums

Nature's Grasp (Balance): Can now be used and can proc indoors.
Entangling Roots: Can now be used indoors.
Feral Swiftness: The movement speed buff can now be used indoors.

So: that raises the question. If roots/swiftness now work indoors, is there any useful distinction between indoor/outdoor in WoW? I can't think of any reason why this distinction should be continued.

The only remaining restriction seems to be on the arena/honor gear.

Lk Arena Druid Melee - World of Raids Gallery

Time for it to be removed. Multiple classes have speed boosts now and snares. Allowing druids tier gear to provide the movement speed bonus (indoors and outdoors) doesn't seem overpowered and seems quite a logical extension given the other changes already made.
"Indoors" will still exist for the purpose of disallowing mount usage. The changes we Druids saw are more of a practicality than a sweeping change to the game's indoor/outdoor mechanics. We gained a new CC against melee targets and Feral Swiftness is more of a convenience than anything else.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:20 PM   #1223
tlbj6142
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by mydhrin View Post
I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.
And frankly, as a feral I would hope our white damage would be more effective than our spell damage.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:37 PM   #1224
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
Originally Posted by mydhrin View Post
I'm sorry, but there is no way our mana pool will handle that kind of rotation for a medium duration fight. I do not think this is a feasible rotation.
We wouldn't need to constantly be casting and shifting. Thanks to the buffed Tiger's Fury and OOC we'll be able to sustain ourselves without shifting for longer periods of time. However, if the new energy system sticks around I think we'd have to at least consider the possibility of throwing in a Moonfire every so often. After all, currently with 0 spell damage Moonfire will do over 900 armor-ignoring damage and cost only a global cooldown, much more than we could get in that time span from white attacks.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:47 PM   #1225
TheNameLessOne
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by Melthu View Post
We can use abilities that consume a completely separate resource: mana. Rogues can't do anything other than autoattack while trying to regen energy, shamans can't do anything in ghost wolf, retadins will expend mana to use their abilities whether or not they equip a shield. It seems odd, at least, that we can blow through a bar of energy, shift out to heal or cyclone, then shift back in and get a full bar of energy to start attacking again right away. I'm sure it will be taken into account by the balancing team, but as of now it has the feel of being OP, like when Infected Wounds was supposed to slow attack speed by 50%.
Rogues can still auto attack, apply poisons, and have more survivability than a caster form feral druid. An enhancement shaman can shift out of ghost wolf and immediately start wailing on you. A retadin can immediately go back to being the top burst damage in the game as long as they have a blue bar.

Further more your examples are based on fighting a bunch of idiots who let you sit there and spam cast.

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Old 08/22/08, 4:51 PM   #1226
kalbear
Bald Bull
 
Tauren Druid
 
Balnazzar
After all, currently with 0 spell damage Moonfire will do over 900 armor-ignoring damage and cost only a global cooldown, much more than we could get in that time span from white attacks.
Hopefully that's not the case. Right now I can get crits of normal attacks in the 600-700 range. I would really hope that I could get more than that in the lvl 80 gear/stats case. And this isn't just a white attack we'd be missing; we'd be able to also do at least one yellow attack in that time as well. We're talking this scenario, right?

0.0 Shift to caster, cast moonfire
1.5 shift to cat
3.0 can do actions

vs. 0.0 shift to cat, gain 40 energy
1.5 can do actions
3.0 still in cat, doing actions

That's a GCD worth of yellow attacks, 1.5 more white attacks vs a moonfire. There will be no lost energy; both take 3.0 seconds of time and will regen 3.0 seconds of energy in that time (so 30 energy). The only time that scenario b is worse than scenario a is if after 1.5 seconds, 40 energy + 1.5 seconds worth of regen is not enough to do a yellow attack.

Honestly, I think it would be better to simply shift twice in 3.0 seconds and gain 110 total energy instead of do anything like moonfire; while you'll waste 10 energy you'll be able to do a lot more with that than you would a moonfire shot.

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Old 08/22/08, 5:04 PM   #1227
Astrylian
Rawr
 
Astrylian's Avatar
 
Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
Besides, Moonfire and Wrath use mana, which is even more precious, now that we can convert mana to energy so much more efficiently. What this does do, however, is not penalized our energy so hard when we NEED to shift out and cast a spell (like Innervate, Rebirth, an emergency heal, etc.)

Rawr!

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Old 08/22/08, 6:22 PM   #1228
Unity
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
<ten>
Khaz'goroth
Energy regen in other forms is a huge improvement. Another use that comes to my mind is using Bear Mangle to keep the debuff up without taking energy from a Shred cycle.

If this is intended behavior I expect Furor to change or be replaced, perhaps with the old swiftshiting (mana cost reduction on quickly returning to form).

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Old 08/22/08, 7:02 PM   #1229
 sadris
Period Queef.
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...tstrath_05.jpg

Extrapolating from the PVP gear, our tier gear won't have extra armor, but they add stuff like this?

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Old 08/22/08, 7:07 PM   #1230
Astrylian
Rawr
 
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Night Elf Monk
 
Stormrage
The problem with that is that for the same mana as a powershift, for a mangle. I like the thought of weaving other skills/spells into cat rotations, but it all ends up costing mana. I don't have the exact number for mana cost of shifting at 80, but it looks like it's going to be like 1000 or so mana, with natural shapeshifter. Using that number as ballpark, you're looking at 40 energy per 1000 mana, or 1050 mana per 42 energy (shred), and an average shred (averaging crits out) of ~4000, that ends up being ~3.81 damage per mana from shred. Moonfire, for example, (using the same base mana assumption that makes shifting cost 1000) would cost 857, and do an average of 1263 damagge, or 1.47 damage per mana from moonfire. And most importantly, the DPM of shred scales with our gear. The DPM of moonfire doesn't. I like these ideas, lets keep trying them, I'm just saying that with what we currently know, they're definitely DPS losses.

It's interesting to think that powershifting may be so good now, that mana may end up effectively being the limiting power source of cats, such that we may end up doing things like prioritizing BoWisdom over BoMight, or socketing for mana/manaregen, so that we can just remove all waiting from our rotations. With enough powershifting, something like 1Roar-5Bite-5Rip in a 16sec cycle may be even eventually possible.


EDIT:
Extrapolating from the PVP gear, our tier gear won't have extra armor, but they add stuff like this?
Our PvP gear very well may be placeholder, and/or that very well may be intended for warriors/DKs, not bears.

Rawr!

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