Maeltne

I'm trying to come to a conclusion regarding Barskin and Shield Wall. Base it is 1/3 with effect with 1/5 the cooldown, and if/when warrior talent it is 1/3 the effect with 1/4 the cooldown.

It terms of overall mitigation it works out to being about 4% for us and 2.4%->3% mitigation for warriors if just spammed mindlessly, however that 60%/20% can make a big difference during and enrage/frenzy/big incoming hit.

I honestly don't know who has the advantage here.

 

kalbear

It doesn't apply to all other CC that I know of, but I do know it applies to things like maim and entangling roots.

 

tlbj6142

I agree. Maybe some sort of 12-15s AoE DOT when used as a bear? That would help PvE by building threat in AoE scenarios and yet not be too OP for PvP but annoying (flag defense, etc.).

 

• Bluefish

Are we sure mobs accumulate threat while CC'd? I vaguely recall being told on my Warrior that Sundering sheeps doesn't give you any threat on them.

 

Pzychotix

Warriors have the clear advantage.

Better mitigation over time is rarely the issue. Saving your healer some mana is rarely the issue.

Surviving an enrage or living through that last big blast is the issue.


Barkskin is crap compared to what other tanks get.

 

tlbj6142

Hunter's Distracting shot does on Live. I used it often on my hunter when I noticed my trapped target had changed his target from me to someone else (usually the healer). It doesn't break the trap yet adds threat.

 

Centarion

EU-PTR just came up... Cat-FFF does no dmg, bear-FFF does around 160 dmg at my 3,2k bear-ap and can crit

edit: Well, it seems that either the buff-tooltip is wrong or the tooltip at the feral-tree, the talent is renamed into the german "Mother Bear" again

 

TheNameLessOne

The warrior one, by a lot. Its still an OH *&^%$ button, so either the druid is blowing it randomly when they don't need it (running the risk of not having it when they absolutely need it) or does save it but ends up 40% worse off than the warrior.

 

Selmarix

That depends on encounter design. If the higher damage phases happen more often than the warrior has shieldwall up, then the druid version is better. As strict emergency button the warrior version is a lot better of course (assuming that such situations do not occur often in a fight).

 

◊ Regen

They most certainly do, but since they are CC'd most of the threat applied to them is global threat. ((Effective threat / Number of Mobs in Combat) from heals at least. Buffing, drinking, etc. also cause global threat (maybe buffing was changed, not sure)) Sundering would most definitely generate threat, you can also taunt mobs that are CC'd to bring your threat up to the highest players threat (which makes taunting before smashing mangle/maul the best option for trash).

Without sounding like to much of an asshole Taleden "cycling through sheeped mobs and FFF'ing for threat" to me sounds like your time could be better spent, because honestly FFF threat is quite minimal. If a sheep breaks "early" then the mage was not doing his job. If you have time to be cycling through CC'd mobs with FF and your not tanking something you probably should be, and if thats not the case you could probably DPS or build a full rage bar to break the next mob with. I honestly can't think of a situation where I thought to myself "hey I should probably FFF that sheep, wait for the CD and FFF another sheep". Maybe I'm over-reacting a little but it seemed wierd to me.

 

Deathwing

Apples and oranges, I would say. Barkskin is more analogous to Shield Block(and IBF if the DK plays it that way): a short duration/cooldown spell for mitigating known periods of high damage. Trying to use Barkskin as a Shield Wall ability will lead to much disparity. Assuming Bear and Warrior are at equal passive mitigation before abilities(and that might not be the case), the druid will still be taking 60% more damage during his "oh shit" ability.

It's a clear bone of contention to me, and it's part of the reason why I won't be playing my feral for the expansion. However, the tone from blue posts has suggested that it won't be fixed. Brez and innervate are technically "oh shit" abilities too. And depending on the situation, even while tanking, they can be more powerful than a well-timed Shield Wall.

Other reason(of why I won't be playing feral) is a myriad of things, ranging from dpsing with a shield is just really freaking cool, to ferals don't seem to getting much that is new. But those have all been touched upon already in this thread.

 

taleden

Sure, in any tough content where GCDs are actually on a budget, there are better things to do. But on easy stuff where I've got enough threat on my target I could stop attacking completely if I wanted to, FFF-the-CC does come in handy sometimes. More than once, some sheep I'd put a few FFFs on got broken by some careless AoE, and the mob ran to me and took a swing before the mage got him down again. If I hadn't done that, that one swing would probably have killed the mage, which would waste even more time than me using GCDs on "sub-optimal" threat like FFF.

Its situational, to be sure, but I'll be disappointed to not even have that tool at my disposal anymore.

 

Maeltne

*checks to see if guild is watching*
*crosses fingers that they aren't*

On 'easy' content I try and kill as many mages as possible.

Seriously though, does FF threat really add up and cause the mob to come to you? As I see it, either (a) threat isn't counted while sheeped/CC'ed, hence FF doesn't mean anything, or (b) threat is counted while sheeped/CC'ed and a butterfly in the next room, let alone the healing and AoE going on, will mean FF doesn't mean anything.

 

kalbear

I've never had a mob come to me after a sheep when I FF it. If FF does put threat on that actually is stored, it isn't enough to stop the residual threat from the CC.

In other news, apparently some items which granted parry rating now grant "parry/dodge" rating, which gives parry if you can parry and dodge if you can't. My suspicion is that warriors/paladins will complain about this because they'd rather have the dodge rating (better conversion rate) but this is a big win for druids. No word on whether defense does the same thing.

 

◊ Regen

Now for block rating... sounds like amazing itemization news to me.

edit: While dodge rating converts at a higher rate 1% parry > 1% dodge.

 

Pzychotix

Unless CCed mobs ignore global threat, they should be going for the healers after a sheep breaks, but I rarely find this to be true. Tests anyone?

 

Duilliath

This might just be some of the best news to come out of the expansion thus far, if they follow up on it.

 

Neddie

Actually it's 100% more damage, isn't it? Shield Wall reduces incoming damage by 60%, meaning you take 40% of the actual damage. Barkskin reduces the damage by 20%, meaning you take 80% of the actual damage. 80% is double 40%.

WOTLK Shield Block -> WOTLK Barkskin
WOTLK Shield Wall -> ?

 

Deathwing

Yes, you're right, I keep getting the old shield wall value stuck in my head.

 

taleden

If I hadn't been doing it and getting that result for a good while, I'd agree with you. But my (anecdotal, admittedly) experience says, it does work. Maybe it takes several FFFs to pass the CC aggro, but it is possible and I've put it to use more than once.

 

angi

This is totally dependend on encounter design. For example at Brutallus it will be godlike, you have barkskin ready for every Stomp. If a boss enrages he often makes 10x the damage as normal so shield wall is nothing which helps there really.

 

Neddie

There are enrages, and there are enrages. The "you took too long, game over, I'm wiping the raid" is one kind that shield wall won't help with. The "you took me to 10%, let's see if you can finish me off" kind is another. Nothing short of a miracle will save you from real enrages, but shield wall (and to a lesser extend shield block and barkskin) can help with the second kind.

 

◊ Regen

These are now categorized seperately (not sure if you made a typo or not).

Berserk = Instant raid wipe (400-1000% dmg)
Enrage = Usually low % based, or sometimes "timed" with someway to clear it (see Grand Widow)
Frenzy = Dispellable "Enrage" via Tranq Shot, etc.

 

Malazaar

All the other tanks shieldwall abilities have at least 50% damage reduction (warriors get 60%) - we only get 20%. While this is fine for long term damage reduction i see a problem with encounter specific issues.

Any encounter with a short and brutal enrage/berserk which the tank has to live through (or at least live as long as possible) will heavily favor any other tank class over us.

So in order to maintain their "every tank can tank every boss" mentality they cannot design encounters with aforementioned mechanic or they have to adjust barkskin accordingly.

 

cana

And again, giving too much power to Barkskin greatly affects Resto PvP balance unless it's talented in deep feral tree.