* Mangle doesn't increase the damage of Maul and Shred anymore
- I think this is incorrect? It looks like they just moved the effect to mangle and shred so it works with mangle OR trauma.
Yeah, tooltips were changed around to be more intuitive. Maul now reads "Effects which increase bleed damage also increase Maul damage." Ditto shred.
This is a fairly simple ability that could go somewhere in the feral tree and fix all the concerns about AoE tanking without being imba or replacing Swipe and Lacerate.
Grizzly's Bellow - 20 rage - 20s cooldown
A roar that deals a large amount of threat to all creatures within 20 yards in front of the bear, increasing in effectiveness if there are a greater number of enemies present.
Mechanics: 180 degree, 20 yard radius shout. Deals less threat than a Swipe to fewer than 5 targets. Same as a Swipe for 5, and adding 20% threat per target for each one above 5. This means that with 10 targets, you'd be doing 2x the threat of a Swipe on a 20-second cooldown. That seems reasonable to me off the top of my head -- certainly not overpowered. It would be usable as a snap aggro device, increase overall threat on large AoE packs while not being spammable, and wouldn't replace Swipe or Lacerate in any way.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
The struggle for me is currently between rend and tear, instincts, iLotP and improved mangle.
RnT - pretty nice bump in cat dps, a large amount of threat, especially for infinite mana fights.
Improved mangle - a nice bump in threat, but RnT is probably more threat and definitely more cat dps
Instincts - 15% more AE damage tanking might be an issue.
ILotP - nice to bring to the raid, but the 60-70% overheal still bothers me.
Really having a tough time with the last two. More dps and I take less AE damage, or free heals for the raid?
The tree is looking much better at the moment; there are some interesting choices to be made in talent selection, but not so many options that it feels truly "bloated", to use that term the developers love to hate.
It'll have to be tested to be certain, but with a 3 minute Berserk providing no-cooldown Mangles, it seems likely that Improved Mangle can be left out of a standard tanking spec, if necessary. Popping Berserk relatively early in a fight should give enough threat to keep ahead of the healers/DPS, at least for single targets and small packs.
ILotP is hard to give up, if you plan on doing feral PVP at all. Apart from the health restoration, it provides the only method we have of handling our tiny mana pool, since it looks like we won't be getting any Intellect itemized on feral gear. Given the shapeshifting we do during PVP, or shifting out to heal, ILotP is now incredibly useful to maintain mana.
With the recent reduction this seems to get everything. If FB turns out to be poor this can even get Infected Wounds and you can be the attack speed debuffer as well as have all the DPS talents.
Pure tanking still looks tight though. Even if we can skip improve mangle, doesn't it seem odd to anyone else that half this talent is therefore useless? I mean if we can determine its suboptimal to take cooldown on mangle that talent becomes another very marginal one. I mean I can see trying to decide between things like Improved Bash and Primal Tenacity (where both have pros and cons), but when a talent is just plain sub-optimal there's a problem. Another example is Master Shapeshifter. That 4% damage bonus while nice is just too deep to feasibly get and therefore will never be taken (maybe in a PvP build...even then though).
Tanking builds are definitely going to be interesting now.
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...00000000000000 could be your base template and then you have 6 pts left to play with. Do you get imp bash for the reduced cooldown/spell interrupt? iLotP for some small raid healing plus better soloing? max out the primal precision (gear sensitive)? Predatory instincts for more crit dmg/threat? Imp Mangle for even more sustained threat? Shredding attacks for more kitty effeciency...
All interesting choices while still having a damn solid base. I'm pretty content with the feral tree atm (not to say its perfect but then no class/build is)...
Shredding Attacks still doesn't feel optional. The DPS loss when attempting to use shred without it is absolutely massive, more than any multi-point talent I can think of offhand. I can't think of too many raids where, even as main tank, I would have no reason to ever go into cat form (Aran, Netherspite, Solarian, Akama, Brutallus?). Predatory Instinct also doesn't seem skippable - if the boss has any sort of aoe damage, this takes a decent amount of sting off of it.
There's going to be a second tank of some kind in the raid, and odds are very good that they'll be able to apply the debuff for you. If that's not the case, i'm not really sure what i'd lose yet - probably Improved Mangle.
Last edited by Niton : 09/20/08 at 3:40 AM.
Reason: I'm terrible at the internets
I am still not sold yet on Rend and Tear, it just does not not seem like a talent that should be that deep into the tree for what it does currently. As such purely for tanking I am looking at something like this build with about 3 points left right now that I can drop where ever. If rend and tear gets a boost or if the number crunchers find its better then it seems right now I might redo somethings.
Per talent point, Predatory Instincts will generate more threat/second than Rend and Tear (note it's only 3 points). PI also seems to be generally more useful (since you can starve yourself by using maul on trash/heroics/10-mans, and it also requires a bleed on the target).
R&T is better if you offtank/dps, but then you need shredding attacks.
--
Did anyone else notice Survival Instincts is usable in catform as well? That, Barkskin and Nurturing Instincts (if you can spare the points) would make feral dps extremely durable even without resorting to a switch to bearform (think fights like Reliquary of Souls and Archimonde, where I already am among the last to die as DPS).
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The thing I'm torn about is a build at 70, before lich king. Do I pick Berserk for some mad bear threat or Omen of Clarity for some Brutallus spanking? OoC seems almost twice as powerful for cat dps.
On that note, the amount of damage/threat gained from Swipe going from 70 -> 80 and 2.8k atp -> 4.1k atp is frustratingly small. Swipe really feels "left out" as far as AOE threat goes right now in Wrath heroics.
The thing I'm torn about is a build at 70, before lich king. Do I pick Berserk for some mad bear threat or Omen of Clarity for some Brutallus spanking? OoC seems almost twice as powerful for cat dps.
I think it's pretty simple. If you're going to tank anything hard, you get berserk; the threat multiplier is simply too good to pass up, and having a fear break is very useful. And with all the new abilities everyone else is throwing around, I think you'll need the threat boost. If you're going to DPS, you must take OoC. It's too much a gain for DPS to ignore, and berserk, while stellar, is not as great a DPS boost.
Per talent point, Predatory Instincts will generate more threat/second than Rend and Tear (note it's only 3 points). PI also seems to be generally more useful (since you can starve yourself by using maul on trash/heroics/10-mans, and it also requires a bleed on the target).
R&T is better if you offtank/dps, but then you need shredding attacks.
While I haven't seen any hard info for new threat values, my current estimates show R&T better point-for-point now (for bear tps) with infinite rage. Of course, PI is better when not Mauling. It really is more of a personal preference. Choosing between the two I'd definitely lean toward PI though since it both has a secondary function (with defensive value) and is better for cat.
The thing I'm torn about is a build at 70, before lich king. Do I pick Berserk for some mad bear threat or Omen of Clarity for some Brutallus spanking? OoC seems almost twice as powerful for cat dps.
I was already considering not taking berserk at 70. Since they split off the last stand function from it, the only time I could see taking it is if you never go cat. If we turn out to really lack threat it might be worth reconsidering, I just can't see it as much a necessity as OoC is for cat.
The new tooltips appear to be incorporating AP scaling into the damage values now.
Using these values I'm getting exactly 0.3*AP as the scaling for Rip and 0.35*AP for the scaling on FB. Note the tooltips do NOT appear to be scaling with talents properly (FB max damage went from 2142 to 2160 after adding 5 points in FA) and Rip went from (2562 to 2590 when adding 5 points in Naturalist).
Assuming the talents added nothing to scaling (and the base of 0.3*AP for Rip and 0.35*AP for FB) is correct lets look at scaling after talents/abilities:
Rip:
Naturalist -> 1.1 multiplier
Mangle/Trauma -> 1.3 multiplier
Glyph of Rip -> 2 extra ticks = 1.33 multiplier
Result: 1.1*1.3*1.33*0.3 = 0.6276*AP scaling, after all is told.
This becomes 0.02092*AP/energy
FB:
Naturalist -> 1.1 multiplier
FA -> 1.15 multiplier
Crit/RnT -> 2.2*(crit rate/100 + 0.50) multiplier
Armor reduction -> x (where x is 1 - mob_mitigation) multiplier
Result: 0.9741*(crit_rate/100 + 0.50)*x*AP
At 50% crit rate this simplifies to 0.9741*x*AP. Normalized becomes 0.02783*AP/energy (at 35 energy). A mob would need 24.8% damage reduction for them to break even, scaling wise. At 40 energy FBs (taking latency and whatnot into account) you'd need boss mitigation to be down to 14% (slightly higher due to the 11.3 damage per energy but that is fairly insignificant in this case).
Now currently I believe we're getting our raid bosses down to near the 25-30% range in terms of damage reduction from raid debuffs (Sunder, FF, CoR). CoR and FF won't stack anymore so it'll probably be towards the higher end of that range. This puts us a bit off from where we'd need to be for FB to completely outshine Rip. Its unclear how much armor penetration we'll be able to get to further drop a bosses mitigation % (and if new 80 bosses will keep the same relative % mitigation). It is possible though that FB will surpass Rip in terms of scaling though. Also of note is that Rip is only close to FB IF the Rip Glyph is being used. It falls quite a bit behind if that glyph is not used.
At 50% crit rate this simplifies to 0.9741*x*AP. Normalized becomes 0.02783*AP/energy (at 35 energy). A mob would need 24.8% damage reduction for them to break even, scaling wise. At 40 energy FBs (taking latency and whatnot into account) you'd need boss mitigation to be down to 14% (slightly higher due to the 11.3 damage per energy but that is fairly insignificant in this case).
Now currently I believe we're getting our raid bosses down to near the 25-30% range in terms of damage reduction from raid debuffs (Sunder, FF, CoR). CoR and FF won't stack anymore so it'll probably be towards the higher end of that range. This puts us a bit off from where we'd need to be for FB to completely outshine Rip. Its unclear how much armor penetration we'll be able to get to further drop a bosses mitigation % (and if new 80 bosses will keep the same relative % mitigation). It is possible though that FB will surpass Rip in terms of scaling though. Also of note is that Rip is only close to FB IF the Rip Glyph is being used. It falls quite a bit behind if that glyph is not used.
You forgot to include a meta gem crit bonus.
I posted a few numbers a couples pages back. Here's the numbers I came up with for break-even points for DPE based on target DR:
25% => 42309 AP (30221 w/ SR)
20% => 24883 AP (17774 w/ SR)
17% => 19502 AP (13930 w/ SR)
So, you would need a combination of enough ArP and enough AP to make FB better than Rip in terms. I doubt those numbers are happening any time soon. This will also change depending on bonuses. The T7 bonus increases Rip further beyond this point. However, it's hard to know if there might be FB bonuses coming later.
I have not seen anyone else mention the stealth buff (?) to Protector of the Pack so thought I'd highlight it. As well as the damage reduction, it was 'Increases your bear form BONUS attack power by 20/40/60%'. It is now 'Increases your attack power in bearform by 2/4/6%'.
Probably very early on, it won't be as good, but it'll scale very quickly because it's working off a much larger base. I'm not very good with numbers though, so I'll let you guys flesh it out For the record, without the talent, but in my fairly crappy gear I have 3406 AP in bearform.
Edit: Thought I might also provide some base values that may help our math/theorycrafters out.
NB: I'm level 80, tauren, completely naked, with 0 talent points spent and no visible buffs/debuffs - not even motw.
Caster form:
8607 hp
5286 mana
Base stats: 94str, 77agi, 100stam, 138int, 161spr, 168 armor (1% DR vs 80), 6.8% dodge
Looking over the talent trees, things are going up slightly.
Was still thinking that they should probably just merge Natural Shapeshifter into HotW instead of the Intellect buff (dropping down Master Shapeshifter to second tier) and that they should just split Feral Aggression and Ferocity into a pure Cat and a pure Bear talent.
Noting the listed builds above, it dawned on me that not one of them uses Natural + Master Shapeshifter. We just don't have the points. It made me wonder if that talent (MS) is actually intended for Ferals. It could simply be an added bonus for Restos or Moonkins, in the unlikely event of them dropping down to a Feral form to regen a bit of mana in the meanwhile. Would be nice to find out if it's even intended for us.
The only build that might get it is a PvP build, but I have no clue what the optimal build there would be there currently. Even saw a PvP build which included Nature's Swiftness.
Wrong type of "more buttons to press". I hear Paladins are looking for more buttons to press too, why don't you suggest to them that they only use HotR to hold AE agro. With a 6 second cooldown, it will be even more challenging. I mean fun. And warriors can only use cleave. Death Knights? Pestilence.
Tab-targeting is not fun, it never will be. Furthermore, it severely hampers our ability to keep agro on the main target. It just stinks of work-around because Blizzard couldn't design a true ability designed for AE. I'm frankly surprised at how many of you are suggesting using Berserk to hold AE agro.
As for lore...bears are already casting sparkly little...things on their target. You're going to have problems with them summoning a storm, which they can do in caster form?
This. Feral Fairie Fire is common sense nowadays and so will be Barkskin now. So why all the "lore concerns" about Hurricane in Bear form? We all know Druids will get some sort of AoE tanking ability so why are people trying to make Swipe do it, or heck even tab target Mangle? Paladins got non-targetable AoE with Consecrate, Warriors got non-targetable Consecrate with a -20% attack speed modifier - now guess what Hurricane is? A targetable Consecrate with a -20% attack speed modifier. If you don't want it targetable, then make it appear around the bear though I'd rather it be targetable since it adds some sort of tactical depth.
Again, why are people so opposed to flavour? Mangle, Maul and to a lesser extent Lacerate are already 1:1 copies of Warrior abilities so you might as well roll one if you like that playstyle. But I don't think I am the only one that enjoyed the Bear threat superiority on pulls with Starfire/Wrath, or Wrath/Reju or Wrath/Wrath. Hurricane in Bear form is a logical extension to it.
So just ask yourself this: Do you want to be even more homogenized or retain some flavour when tanking?
The 5 remaining points could be spent in either:
* Imp. Mangle + Primal Tenacity (bosses that stun, extra threat) - exact distribution depending on whether 2/3 IM is completely useless or not (2 sec mangle vs. 1.5 sec lacerate/swipe)
* Natural+Master shapeshifter (feels too pricey for pure bear, better for pure/hybrid cat builds)
* Rend and Tear (again feels too pricey, better for cat/hybrids)
Some points:
* Lower CD interrupt for caster bosses just seems too good to pass up, utility wise, with the fact that Bash now interrupts spell casting.
* As a tank I want to be self-reliant when it comes to Imp. Demo Roar and Infected Wounds. I don't want to have to respec all the time depending on raid composition. Spending those 5 points in Feral Aggression feels very expensive though (see idea below).
* OoC seems skippable (seldom rage starved) and King of the Jungle as well, as Enrage is not something I'll be using on bosses due to the armor penalty.
* Points in Primal Precision can be removed if gear gets enough expertise - that would allow 3/3 Imp. Mangle, 3/3 Primal Tenacity and OoC at some point if I find it worthwhile.
An idea:
There's been many excellent suggestions for making Feral Aggression more viable in this thread. How about if they made the FB component of Feral Aggression swap places with the Swipe boost of Feral Instinct? That would make FI a pure cat talent and FA pure bear (and adjusting point costs as needed). I would love a reason to want this talent for a pure bear build (such as the one above).
Want better swipe for multi-mob tanking? Here's improved demo roar to help you stay alive/put on more threat-oriented gear.
Want imp demo roar for bosses? Here's a swipe boost for when you're not tanking just one mob, so spending those points seem doesn't feel as painful.
(Buffing demo roar base AP reduction to be exactly equal with lock/warrior debuffs would also help making FA easier to justify talent point wise.)
(Buffing demo roar base AP reduction to be exactly equal with lock/warrior debuffs would also help making FA easier to justify talent point wise.)
Demo Shout and Demo Roar are equal in power at level 80. But unless the FB part is really really good you'd want a DPS Warrior or Lock provide the debuff. Adds some threat as well since you will have a GCD free every now and then that you would have used for Demo.
Recent talent changes makes it possible to take ALL dps talents and even having 1 point in tier 5 for brutal impact / primal precision / nuturing instinct and having infected wounds 3/3 AND still having 16 points in resto for master shapeshifter. I'd say that a pretty solid PvE DPS build and i'd be happy to go live with it.
Demo Shout and Demo Roar are equal in power at level 80.
Oh thanks, that's awesome, can't believe I missed that.
Just out of curiosity, what is the rationale is for demo roar being -408 AP the while warrior and hunter pet versions being -410 (-571 vs. -574 with talents)? Not that 2-3 AP is going to make any difference, it just seems odd - is it to avoid a situation where both classes are wasting GCDs because they can't see (without addons) when the other class' debuff is fading?
Oh thanks, that's awesome, can't believe I missed that.
Just out of curiosity, what is the rationale is for demo roar being -408 AP the while warrior and hunter pet versions being -410 (-571 vs. -574 with talents)? Not that 2-3 AP is going to make any difference, it just seems odd - is it to avoid a situation where both classes are wasting GCDs because they can't see (without addons) when the other class' debuff is fading?
The reason is much simpler. Warriors get their shout at level 79 or 80 and Druids get it earlier. By since both scale with level (+1 AP reduction per level) they both end up at 411 AP reduced. I can't speak for the Pet shouts but maybe they are at 411 AP reduced at level 80 as well or they are intentionally 1 AP worse so Warriors and Druids can overwrite them when needed.
Recent talent changes makes it possible to take ALL dps talents and even having 1 point in tier 5 for brutal impact / primal precision / nuturing instinct and having infected wounds 3/3 AND still having 16 points in resto for master shapeshifter. I'd say that a pretty solid PvE DPS build and i'd be happy to go live with it.
Unless you're dodged capped, precision is a dps talent. While we'll be able to cap the dodge portion of expertise, I believe it will be well into naxx (or even after) before we do. And the energy savings isn't wasted until you have a lot of hit and expertise.
For the tanking build: Precision is worth more to tanks than master shifter. Unless you're dodge capped, it will be 5% more hits for only 2 talent points. It also means you take less damage. Master shapeshifter is closer to 3% threat for 5 talent points (since it doesn't scale the static threat from lacerate or maul, demo roar, FFF and doesn't increase threat from rage gains).
Skipping a point in HotW seems very odd too.
Maul gets crazy multipliers with talents now: Base x 1.3 (Mangle) x 1.2 (SF) x 1.2 (RnT) x 1.1 (naturalist) x 1.04 (shifter). If you have two targets and the glyph, even without spreading around another mangles or bleeds, you could expect up to Base x 1.2 (SF) x 1.1 (Naturalist) x 1.04 (shifter). Take the build I planned to get below. On two targets I'd get: Base x 1.2 x 1.1 x 1.3 x 1.12 + Base x 1.2 x 1.1 = 3.24 x Base maul damage before crits, every 2.5 seconds? If I can fit the last 2 points in rend in, it would be 3.38 x Base maul damage. It gets higher with mouseover lacerates and/or mangles.
If we get good at popping beserk / kotj at the right times, I have to wonder if we'll face another "Why does the tank out dps the rogue in shattered halls?' nerf.
I think rend is going to be more value than improved mangle now, especially if you spend any time at all in cat form (+20% to shred is way better than 6 energy every 12 or 18 (glyph) seconds or even never (someone else covering mangle/trauma).
My main delimna is the last 2 points in Rend and tear versus some of the other talents.
It covers all of the tanking talents except FA.
For threat it skips imp mangle, 2 points in rend and master shifter, but it has so many threat talents that I doubt that's an issue. If threat's going to be a problem pull with hurricane, beserk mangle spam and if it's still an issue, KotJ after.
For dps, it covers everything except FA, 2 points in RnT, and master shifter.
Regarding FA's usefulness:
If they want to make FA worth taking for bears, I had a different suggestion. People are complaining about AE tanking. Make FA do what it does and add in a threat boost to demo for each point of FA. 2 birds and all... That said, I hope they don't do it. I don't want to spend 5 more points in tier 1.
To be honest, the insane multiplier on maul, combined with the new berserk and the maul glyph scare the hell out of me.
Especially in heroics where 3-5 mob pulls are pretty much standard we will be dealing a LOT of damage, possible more than non-aoe dds (kinda like it was in the early days of BC).
Pop enrage and berserk right at the pull and then maul+mangle for 15 seconds (rage shouldn't be an issue) if you can afford you could even pop a dps trinket to amplify the effect even further. I'd say that would be 4-5k dps as long as the berserk lasts.
Ferocity - Building Rage does not appear to be an issue, especially with Natural Reaction. Pretty much useless for Cat DPS.
Improved Leader of the Pack - With so many abilities going raid wide I am not sure this is a "must have" talent.
Improved Mangle - I just can't justify a lower CD Mangle being better than picking up other talents that boost *both* Cat and Bear damage. Filling out RnT for example.
Infected Wounds - I picked that up for OT/trash where I am the only debuffer, but if your raid comp permits you could swap points out of this and pick up some of the other skipped items.
Last edited by Garanthir : 09/20/08 at 1:56 PM.
Reason: I fail at URL linking
09/20/08, 12:11 AM
For the record, without the talent, but in my fairly crappy gear I have 3406 AP in bearform.
