Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion - Page 89

kalbear · 08/28/08, 1:38 PM

Yeah, that's really confusing on their part. So furor will still help with powershifting, it sounds like. This quote is especially confusing:

So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration. If Furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent, energy is set to 0.

It should hopefully be the opposite - if you are over 40, you gain no extra energy. If you are under 40, you go to 40. And the 'if furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent' part makes no sense with the energy out of forms.

But the above behavior I outlined doesn't explain their goal of removing powershifting completely.

Some more clarification/examples from the devs would be really great on the beta forums. It sounds to me like they're effectively removing the need for furor, or at least wanting to remove it.

ETA: Ah, okay. In the context of nerfing both furor and making energy ticks not special, it makes sense. So...in humanoid form you're always regenerating energy, but only X can be transferred in cat form - where X is either 0 (untalented) or 40 (furor). That's pretty lousy, tbh. But it does remove any powershifting goodness.

Tappin · 08/28/08, 1:39 PM

When Furor triggers on shifting to Cat Form, your energy will be set to the maximum of its current value and 40. So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration.

Edit: I think blue mispoke and you end up with the minimum of current energy or 40.

As I understand it, if we shift with 10 energy on beta, we end up with 50 (+latency energy).
If they want us to end up with 10, it makes furor less valuable than live. Basically you end up with 10 (assuming 1 second gcd) to 40 energy when you shift to cat instead of just 40.
If we get the maximum of current or 40 (as stated), we end up with 40. That's what the statement above describes, but I don't think that's what he meant. It's basically the same powershifting we have on live?

I have no problem with them removing powershifting as long as they balance our dps around only flat energy regen + omen procs + kotj (or give us other energy regen talents). Considering we weren't balanced even using powershifting skillfully and liberally, that's a lot of work. Due to our high yellow damage, we're even more dependent on energy regen (and far less on haste/hit) and yet don't regen it as well without powershifting.

If I understand the math right, removing powershifting would make Savage Roar less powerful, as it will be harder to generate a quick cycle that takes advantage of it... even more balancing to do...

Edit: I liked the idea of having a full energy bar after 10 seconds in caster, even if they removed powershifting. It appears that won't work either. You end up with a max of 40 no matter how long you spend in caster form?

Edit: I'm pretty sure he mistated and we get the minimum of current energy or 40 when we shift to cat. If that's the case, powershifting is gone: furor does very little if you have less than 40 energy. And the benefits of energy regen while in bear or cat is capped at 40, making furor fairly unattractive on the cat side.

Merple · 08/28/08, 1:41 PM

Basically, it works like tactical mastery now. If you chance stances, you lose all of your energy unless you have Furor, which caps the amount of energy you can RETAIN at 40.

It doesn't GIVE you energy anymore, it simply prevents you from losing some of it when you switch into cat form.

snakedance · 08/28/08, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

It should hopefully be the opposite - if you are over 40, you gain no extra energy. If you are under 40, you go to 40. And the 'if furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent' part makes no sense with the energy out of forms.

It does. Assuming I'm parsing this correctly, the change to energy regeneration mechanics ensures that Furor allows you to hold on to energy gained out of form, but does not allow for powershifting (in that you're not getting free energy, only keeping what you've actually regenerated, to a max of 40). It's a two-step workaround.

Tappin · 08/28/08, 1:43 PM

Originally Posted by snakedance

It does. Assuming I'm parsing this correctly, the change to energy regeneration mechanics ensures that Furor allows you to hold on to energy gained out of form,

up to a maximum of 40, correct?

TrevvyTrev · 08/28/08, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by mydhrin

No, it should still be 142 hit rating for 2 reasons:

1st -> I believe they didn't change the ratio of hit rating to hit %.

2nd -> No matter if your 70, 71, or 80, the hit percentage for a mob the same level as you (or 3 level higher for bosses) doesn't change, so it stays at 9% (if I remember correctly).

I may be mistaken, but I don't think so...

It will only be 142 at level 70. At level 80 you will need more hit rating to hit 9%, which probably explains why people have said the cap has changed. All rating stats function similarly.

Disargeria · 08/28/08, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Yeah, that's really confusing on their part. So furor will still help with powershifting, it sounds like. This quote is especially confusing:
It should hopefully be the opposite - if you are over 40, you gain no extra energy. If you are under 40, you go to 40. And the 'if furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent' part makes no sense with the energy out of forms.

But the above behavior I outlined doesn't explain their goal of removing powershifting completely.

Some more clarification/examples from the devs would be really great on the beta forums. It sounds to me like they're effectively removing the need for furor, or at least wanting to remove it.

How does that not remove powershifting?

When you're at zero energy and you cancel form, then shift to cat, you'll only have the energy you would have naturally regenerated in that amount of time. Therefore, you're not gaining any extra energy that you wouldn't normally have.

If you shift out of cat and then back at full energy, you retain 40 energy. With this change, you no longer gain any benefit to shifting at under 40 energy, and you get to keep 40 of your energy if you have over 40.

Astrylian · 08/28/08, 1:46 PM

Relax guys, I'm sure he'll fix what he said or post a revision or something soon. As is,

When Furor triggers on shifting to Cat Form, your energy will be set to the maximum of its current value and 40.

...directly contradicts...

So, if you are over 40, it goes to 40. If you are less than 40, you gain no energy, but keep the amount you gained through normal regeneration. If Furor does not trigger or you do not have the talent, energy is set to 0.

If the first line is true, it's a minuscule buff from on live (only difference is you wouldn't lose energy if you powershift when energy>40), and still allows powershifting, which contradicts the whole point of his post.
If the second line is true, it's a significant nerf, actually reducing the energy gain when powershifting (to 0, in most PvE), and goes in line with the point of his post.

Originally, I was hoping they'd remove powershifting in WotLK, because I didn't want to have to code it in Rawr cause it's nasty complex. But after playing with the powershifting mechanic in beta, I found it so fun, I would hate to play without it, and found it would be easier than I thought to code.

loos · 08/28/08, 1:51 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

It will only be 142 at level 70. At level 80 you will need more hit rating to hit 9%, which probably explains why people have said the cap has changed. All rating stats function similarly.

Okay, that makes sense. Although it brings up another question then, why don't we want lots of hit on our sets at 80? Or is 296 not considered 'a lot' of hit. I'd hate to see what the rogue cap is now.

Astrylian · 08/28/08, 2:00 PM

We have our answer:

You are right, I typed faster than I was thinking. Your energy will be set to the MINIMUM of your current amount of energy and 40, or, from another point of view, it will be maxxed at 40. Sorry. I'll correct my post.

Here's an example:

At time 0 I have 0 energy and I shift out of Cat Form, but I'm on global cooldown for 1 sec. from the last Cat Form ability I used. I cast Rebirth on a fallen party member, that takes 2 sec. During that 3 sec, I gained an additional 30 energy. I shift back to Cat Form with the Furor talent and have 30 energy. WIthout the talent, I have 0.

Another:

At time 0 I have 0 energy from killing a mob with a critical Ferocious Bite. I shift out of Cat Form. Once the global has passed from the FB (1 sec). I regrowth myself (2 sec). and Lifebloom myself (1.5 sec.) I go back to Cat Form. 4.5 seconds passed, so I am entitled to 45 energy, but Furor cuts me off at 40 energy when it fires.

Another:
I'm in Bear Form as an off-tank. My mob dies, and I shift to Cat Form to help kill the next target. I've been in Bear Form for longer than 10 seconds, so my energy bar is full, but Furor cuts me off at 40 energy.

Another:
Same as first example, but I don't Innervate anyone, I go back to Cat Form with only 22 energy.

Yes, there are some cases like the first one, where if I have no latency, never pause for any decision-making, and only cast one spell out of Cat Form, I get less than 40 energy. However, in most cases I will always be at at least 40, and so Furor will give me the intended amount of energy without creating the degenerate "powershifting" case.

kalbear · 08/28/08, 2:04 PM

Okay, that makes sense. Although it brings up another question then, why don't we want lots of hit on our sets at 80? Or is 296 not considered 'a lot' of hit. I'd hate to see what the rogue cap is now.

296 is not a lot of hit at lvl 80 on the leather gear that's so far come out. Each piece I've seen has somewhere between 30 and 50 hit. Here's the list of all usable gear by druids that has hit rating. Not all of that is going to be feral gear (quite a bit isn't) but it should give an idea of what the scale of hit is. And with things like +10hit/+10expertise gems, it shouldn't be hard to get to the cap.

They've clarified what furor/powershifting will do, so furor now does act like a retention of energy, not an addition. Ah well. I really liked powershifting and thought it was an interesting mechanic that separated druids from rogues.

Promethius · 08/28/08, 2:05 PM

Anyone think dropping Natural Shapeshifter and Master Shapeshifter to tier 1 and moving Furor up to tier 2 or 3 is in order with this change? Frees up 5 points as a pve feral, or 2 if you take Intensity as a cheaper talent alternative for 10 rage compared to Furor. Don't think it has much impact on resto or moonkin either.

Tappin · 08/28/08, 2:12 PM

That makes a lot more sense than maximum.

So basically furor and shapeshifter are no longer group/raid dps talents. The rage still helps for tank pulls (especially for root-CC pulls). But the amount of energy / mana you're likely to save on a group / raid is very minor now.

There is still some significant benefit in pvp, but not as much as we used to have.

This makes improved shapeshifter basically requiring 16 resto points even more frustrating.

Pretty significant changes. Thank god they haven't finished balancing feral dps or arenas.

mydhrin · 08/28/08, 2:23 PM

Yeah, I would really like a change to the first tiers of resto for the feral synergy. Moving Natural Shapeshifter, Master Shapeshifter and Naturalist closer could be a good one. But also, changing the furor talent so that it brings something new to the table of feral synergy could be sweeter.

Pzychotix · 08/28/08, 4:07 PM

Can't say I'm a fan of the changes at all. I'm of the opinion that cap on furor should at least be raised from 40. We're still spending some 800 mana on a shift, and trying to stay on people AND killing them will be harder with less energy on shifts.