Things I noticed last night on the PTR...
Too much dodge? -- I had nearly 40% dodge in my T4-ish bear outfit using this spect, I know I don't have that much on Live, maybe only 36%? I thought we lost dodge...
And green armor on S2 but not T4? -- WTF? The only pieces I own that have "additional armor" are PvP pieces everything else now just has white armor. I hope that changes. With the above build I'm have 4K less armor than I do on live.
FWIW, I tanked a Son of Gruul (the one above shat) last night. I had plenty of rage with the above build. I even had to blow FR 'cause I wasn't getting heals.
The reasons they took off the "green armor" (it's been discussed many times) are that (1) they don't want us to be armor capped and therefore limited in our upgrade paths, (2) if the T6 retained its armor, people would probably still be using it at 80 since "green armor" is not in the LK itemization, and (3) if they don't nerf our current armor, Protector of the Pack a.k.a. Mother Bear is pretty overpowered at 70. Most bears will come out of 3.0 with about the same survivability as they have on live (less for physical, more for magic), more emergency buttons, and less cat DPS in a viable tank spec.
As dukes mentions, most people assume the S2/3/4 armor is going to be changed as well; I have done bug reports on it on the PTR. I personally am not going to farm honor or arena rating unless Blizzard confirms that it won't be changed.
Last edited by foxglove : 09/24/08 at 3:56 PM.
Reason: it's called Protector of the Pack now
Most people assume the S2/3/4 armor is going to be changed; I have done bug reports on it on the PTR. I personally am not going to farm honor or arena rating unless Blizzard confirms that it won't be changed.
I know why the made the change, I just found it odd that only PvE gear has been touched on the PTR and not PvP.
Probably old news but I had no idea BoSanc was changed for WotLK.
Greater Blessing of Sanctuary typo fixed, now properly labeled as giving the target 10 rage, 20 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana when they block, parry, or dodge a melee attack.
How certain are you of the formulae you're giving? The ratings thread doesn't appear to agree with them - in particular, if the diminishing returns are only applied to the dodge from equipment, delta_avoidance probably doesn't diminish.
Last I read those value are ok, tested and equal to mine, or do I lost something reading?
In particular, let +defense and agil = 0 and dodge rating = z. Then net avoidance A = 24.44 + 1/(.00855 + .956/(.02541z)),
and A = 24.44 + 1/(.00855 + 37.62/z).
dA/dx = 37.62 / (.00855*z + 37.62)^2
That last function goes from .0266 at z=0 to .0176 at z=1000 (about 46% avoidance), to .0125 at z=2000 (around 61% avoidance), and .0071 at z=4000 (81% avoidance).
That function represents the return on dodge rating at that level of avoidance (which is proportional to the return on agility). This derivative is nearly linear in the range from 0 to 4000 (visibly not so, but the curvature is light),
dA/dz
z
A
.0266
0
24.4%
.0176
1000
46%
.0125
2000
61%
.0092
3000
72%
.0071
4000
81%
Net Mitigation Delta is a separate matter: It's calculated relative to avoidance, (1% dodge at 98% avoidance is worth more than 1% dodge at 25% avoidance). The A_factor is the amount of net mitigation adding one dodge rating to your gear would give you. For example, with no gear on (24.4% avoidance), adding one dodge rating reduces total damage taken over a long fight by 0.0352%.
The function is A' * 100 / (100 - A) The table looks like :
dA/dz
z
A
A_factor
.0266
0
24.4%
.0352
.0176
1000
46%
.0326
.0125
2000
61%
.0321
.0092
3000
72%
.0329
.0071
4000
81%
.0374
As you can see, returns go from diminishing to increasing at around 60% avoidance, or 2000 dodge rating/2100 agility..
If you spot any errors in my math or assumptions, pm me or post.
The reasons they took off the "green armor" (it's been discussed many times) are that (1) they don't want us to be armor capped and therefore limited in our upgrade paths, (2) if the T6 retained its armor, people would probably still be using it at 80 since "green armor" is not in the LK itemization, and (3) if they don't nerf our current armor, Protector of the Pack a.k.a. Mother Bear is pretty overpowered at 70. Most bears will come out of 3.0 with about the same survivability as they have on live (less for physical, more for magic), more emergency buttons, and less cat DPS in a viable tank spec.
As dukes mentions, most people assume the S2/3/4 armor is going to be changed as well; I have done bug reports on it on the PTR. I personally am not going to farm honor or arena rating unless Blizzard confirms that it won't be changed.
I don't think they'll change arena gear because druids werent the only ones itemized with more armor. Rogue, mage, warlock, and priest armor also have green armor values to offset the increase in damage via armor penetration. Unless every change is reverted and armor penetration scaling is changed (which i think was done in beta but i dont know if it will be in 3.0) then all of the extra armor on arena sets might be removed.
I think the armor on pvp gear is going to stay. It's on every class's set. It was put there so that cloth wearing classes would not get gibbed by melee classes once more and more armor penetration gear became available.
Although, now with the chance from armour penetration to armour penetration rating - and all armor classes getting the same relative treatment, perhaps its no longer required?
Edit: Also wanted to mention - not sure if anyones noticed - they changed the wording on Protector of the Pack. It now says 'when you enter bear form'. I tested this out on beta. I had 3% damage reduction with one person in my party, stayed in bearform , added more ppl to the party for no change. I had to go into bearform again for my damage reduction to update. The reason it was changed to this as ppl were worried that if someone in a raid disconnects or leaves then you'll lose mitigation. Whether this was the best way of changing this I'm not sure.
Probably old news but I had no idea BoSanc was changed for WotLK.
Greater Blessing of Sanctuary typo fixed, now properly labeled as giving the target 10 rage, 20 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana when they block, parry, or dodge a melee attack.
I hadn't noticed this before. Doesn't this mean that a well geared prot paladin will regen silly amounts of mana with holy shield up?
It'll be really messed up if they leave the armor on our pvp set. S4 will probably end up being better than even the best sunwell loot. I really don't want to be "forced" to gather 4 s4 pieces to be the best I can be when tanking.
I hadn't noticed this before. Doesn't this mean that a well geared prot paladin will regen silly amounts of mana with holy shield up?
That's quite true. I've never had anything approach a mana problem while tanking mobs on the PTR, with the exception perhaps of bosses like Selin Fireheart, since there are long pauses where they aren't hitting you at all.
Greater Blessing of Sanctuary typo fixed, now properly labeled as giving the target 10 rage, 20 runic power, or 2% of maximum mana when they block, parry, or dodge a melee attack.
This is going to be so overpowered that I'm sure they'll nerf it. 10 rage every time I dodge, in addition to Natural Reaction, is going to be infinite rage on trash and fast-attacking bosses. I'm already swimming in rage while tanking 5mans (my only experience so far in beta), so this is going to be really ridiculous.
I don't see how a tank with infinite rage will be game-breaking. Actually in beta you can handle aggro also rage-starved, infinite rage only means more dps but with infinite rage a bear will only do about 65-70% dps of a dps class.
This is going to be so overpowered that I'm sure they'll nerf it. 10 rage every time I dodge, in addition to Natural Reaction, is going to be infinite rage on trash and fast-attacking bosses. I'm already swimming in rage while tanking 5mans (my only experience so far in beta), so this is going to be really ridiculous.
It really does seem like it's meant to be 1 rage and 2 runic power. I'm not sure about the mana %age... of course I'm probably wrong.
@PvP Gear: If they leave extra armor on it is not a big problem, after 3-4 week we will be all leveling...
S4 will pretty much remain the best until you hit lvl 80 too, so add a week or two. Yeah, it's not a big problem. But having S4 superior to T6 all the way to lvl 80 is just wrong. If they leave the armor on pvp gear, they should at the very least leave armor on tier gear until wotlk is actually released.
@everybody: I've read (I don't remember where) that now when you refresh a dot the ticks don't reset. Can someone try it with lacerate and RIP?
On the PTR, I can confirm that the dot from lacerate does not reset when you reapply it. Having a full rage bar and spamming lacerate every GCD, I still get the tick going off every 3 seconds. I can't really figure out a good way to try rip since I have a fair bit of latency.
Edit: I just tried Rake, and this ability DOES reset the dot, which is kinda conflicting with how lacerate appears to work. Attacking with Rake every ~2 seconds, I did not see a single dot tick over the whole fight.
Would be nice if someone else could back this up, and specially give rip a try.
On the PTR, I can confirm that the dot from lacerate does not reset when you reapply it. I can't really figure out a good way to try rip since I have a fair bit of latency.
Edit: I just tried Rake, and this ability DOES reset the dot, which is kinda conflicting with how lacerate appears to work. Attacking with Rake every ~2 seconds, I did not see a single dot tick over the whole fight.
I don't understand what exactly isn't working. What do you mean by "reset"?
The dot from lacerate doesn't reset because you're 'refreshing' it. Much like the new spriest talent that refreshes SWP when they Mind Flay the target (which doesn't reset the dot), Lacerate gets refreshed when you hit the target with it again. When you re-apply Rip and Rake, they get 'replaced' with a brand new version of the dot.
I don't understand what exactly isn't working. What do you mean by "reset"?
Lacerate ticks every 3 seconds. Say you reapply lacerate after 2 seconds (1 second before the next tick is coming), the timer will start over and it'll be another 3 seconds before next tick. This is why you should always aim to reapply lacerate at ~2 or ~5 seconds, and not ~4 seconds or ~7 seconds.
Unless I'm mistaken this is how all dots/bleed effects works in Live, but at least for some abilities it appears to be changed on PTR/beta.
Edit: Nvm, ignore this, I seem to be a bit confused. Went to doublecheck on Live, and lacerate works exactly like it does on PTR, the bleed effect does not reset. Dunno if it's been changed in some patch, or if it's always been this way.
The dot from lacerate doesn't reset because you're 'refreshing' it. Much like the new spriest talent that refreshes SWP when they Mind Flay the target (which doesn't reset the dot), Lacerate gets refreshed when you hit the target with it again. When you re-apply Rip and Rake, they get 'replaced' with a brand new version of the dot.
Speaking of Rake, did they make any changes to it or is it still a very situational spell not worth using except for applying a dot at the start of the fight (for r&t) ?
Lacerate ticks every 3 seconds. Say you reapply lacerate after 2 seconds (1 second before the next tick is coming), the timer will start over and it'll be another 3 seconds before next tick. This is why you should always aim to reapply lacerate at ~2 or ~5 seconds, and not ~4 seconds or ~7 seconds.
Unless I'm mistaken this is how all dots/bleed effects works in Live, but at least for some abilities it appears to be changed on PTR/beta.
Edit: Nvm, ignore this, I seem to be a bit confused. Went to doublecheck on Live, and lacerate works exactly like it does on PTR, the bleed effect does not reset. Dunno if it's been changed in some patch, or if it's always been this way.
The difference between Lacerate and Rake/Rip is quite simple: Lacerate stacks, the others don't.
It's the same with Lifebloom vs. Rejuv. Stacking Buffs/Debuffs get refreshed and thus don't reset, non-stacking ones get replaced and reset.
Speaking of Rake, did they make any changes to it or is it still a very situational spell not worth using except for applying a dot at the start of the fight (for r&t) ?
I don't think there have been any real changes to rake. I have R&T, while attacking leveling mobs, I've been doing Mangle-->Rake-->Mangle....>FB. I actually think the mobs explode when I hit FB.
I prefer Pounce -> Mangle -> Shred -> FB. With R&T and the shred glyph for 20% more dmg on stunned/incapacitated targets, I'm critting Shred for over 4k in t6/sunwell gear, and then exploding the mob with a 75% crit FB. Since it dies during the Pounce stun whenever I proc OOC (which is pretty often), I take less damage per mob than imp lotp gives me back. It's quite rewarding
This is going to be so overpowered that I'm sure they'll nerf it. 10 rage every time I dodge, in addition to Natural Reaction, is going to be infinite rage on trash and fast-attacking bosses. I'm already swimming in rage while tanking 5mans (my only experience so far in beta), so this is going to be really ridiculous.
If you're already swimming in rage why does it matter that this buff will give you more? You can only dump rage as fast as the GCD lets you.
09/24/08, 3:37 PM
