Nathariel

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> AoE Tanking - Bear Poast

GC post stating that Thunderclap and Swipe will no longer have a limit on targets.

Unsure whether this is really the correct solution to the problem, but it will be an improvement.

 

david0925

While this is a really welcomed buff, I'm really starting to think if they're dumbing down the game too much. As easy as tab and using ability is, it still requires a bit more than just spamming one button. I guess if they are trying to make aoe tanking overall easier then whatever.

On another note, does this also make bears the best Powerleveler? Spamming will be amazing at that job.

Maniq is my hero

 

raffy

Infinite target swipe is gonna really be overpowered damage-wise if it stays as-is. It's probably more OP than Berserk Mangle for TPS, and it has no cooldown. Swipe a pile of mobs and you'll get a full rage bar from Primal Fury with a reasonable crit rate.

How much damage does Blizzard want tanks to do? The last few tanking buffs seem a bit over the top. I understanding wanting tanking to be fun, but I think most of us (tanks) were already having fun -- we just wanted more tools to better demonstrate our tanking abilities.

I've always been against the idea of mindless AoE threat; it greatly simplifies encounters and really undercuts the skill in tanking. Easy tanking == macro'd tanking == boring tanking.

-- At 60, successful multi-target tanking required a great deal of skill and concentration. If you were a Feral Druid or Protection Warrior that could tank under competitive DPS, you were held in high regard.
-- At 70, it started out great, but as instances were nerfed and abilities/talents were changed, it got easier and easier. Near the end of BC, Paladins completely trivialized all instance tanking. (Druids too, but it requires far more work.)

Once balanced, what's 80 supposed to be like? Every tank is doing 9000 TPS/DPS with 1 button? Might as well write an LUA interface for the blind, since it no longer requires you to look at the screen to tank a large groups of mobs.

Sorry if I sound a bit aggravated, I just find it irritating when Blizzard sucks the skill out of the game and replaces it with fluff and "big numbers." Sure, many of us were requesting an improvement to Feral AoE threat, but super-Swipe was probably not the best solution.

Back on topic, I'll guess that Swipe will be given a cooldown.

 

◊ Regen

.....How does that solve anything, that would be worse than limited target swipe on no CD...

 

raffy

I'm not saying it solves anything, nor would I suggest it, I just fear it will happen.

 

dukes

Having only been doing PUG's on my priest recently, I can see where Blizzard are coming from with the changes. They want to:
a) Make people _want_ to tank. Currently there just aren't enough tanks in comparison to the rest of the population, generally.
b) Make it easier to tank. Some tanks really don't know what they're doing in PUG's, using the wrong abilities, not being able to control more than 1 or 2 mobs, and generally screwing up horrifically (one mob runs, they turn their back to chase it and get gibbed because of no avoidance).

Of course, there are a few people who do know how to tank that I've grouped with, but it's around 50/50 between awful/good. The changes seem good, but a bit excessive to the point of making it very easy to threat, especially for those who could before the changes.

I would be surprised if Swipe get's a cooldown. Both Consecration and Thunder Clap do a lot more threat than it, and TC also debuffs. They also haven't addressed whether it will still hit CC - if it does then there will still be a bit of skill in having to keep the CC away from the mass AoE of doom, similar to how you have to with consecration at the moment.

Having been mucking about hitting the test dummies in Org recently (the level 70 ones) I'm wondering if bear damage is a bit too much at the moment. Damage reduction is around 30-35% on them, and maul is still critting for around 2.5k in tank gear (with mangle/lacerate up), with Mangle critting for about 1.8-2k. Add on Enrage and it goes up to about 2.9k maul crits. In DPS gear I was getting almost 3.5k maul crits with enrage, mangle and lacerate up.

That's with a damage-centric spec (taking OoC/naturalist, with full RnT), but it still seems quite a lot and almost back to the beta point of damage. With the glyph to make Maul hit two targets, DPS is going to be silly just from spamming maul on more than one target, to the point where (in 5 mans) Druid tanks may just end up out damaging the rest of the group, which is what we saw in Beta and ended up with the Mangle damage nerf.

 

Duilliath

Which I still think was daft, as the main issue was Swipe - not Mangle or Maul.

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

• sadris

They want tanks to be interchangeable. When one class can hold aggro on an infinite number of mobs through warlock Seed of Corruption spam and the others cannot, that breaks interchangeability. Uncapping Swipe and TC fixes this issue.

'[The main argument against gay-marriage] always revolves around ... "the gay agenda"... Apparently all these gays only want to get married so they can adopt children, turn the children gay (probably using their mystic gay voodoo, passed gayly down from one gay generation to the next), and perpetuate their gayness.'
-- rantingkitten

 

Promethius

This got me thinking about bear aoe leveling for the expansion, but it seems less feasible than one would think due to blocking being so much more valuable than iLotP for multiple low hitting mobs. Assuming WotLK: Shields are Sexy - TankSpot isn't completely outdated, let's see how 1500 shield block value compares to 4% of 20k hp every 6 sec. iLotP ends up restoring 800 hp per proc, meaning that a single partial block (not fully absorbed) provides more overall effectiveness over ~11 sec. A mob with a 2.4 debuffed attack speed against a 30% chance to block loses up to 1125 damage done to the target opposed to iLotP healing 800 over the same 6 sec. Now with 6 mobs and a 1.2 debuffed attack speed, block now prevents up to 13500 damage. So while iLotP and block function relatively similarly against single target slow swinging targets, there's quite a discrepancy in potential negated damage from block in comparison to iLotP for a high rate of incoming attacks.

Thus, should iLotP be redesigned? What would happen if iLotP were unlinked from the LotP aura (becoming self only and given a name change) but had the cooldown removed, had the effect per proc halved, and the effect basically procced in conjunction with primal fury? The examples given before assumed 100% crit rate to have the effect every 6 sec. With a more realistic but exaggerated crit rate of 50% and enough haste to bring bear to a 2 sec attack speed, we're looking at 3 mauls and 4 gcds every 6 sec. Half of those critting at 2% hp restoration a crit means 7% over 6 sec. A 30% crit rate would have netted 4.2% of total hp in that duration. Now, this brings me to my first point, in that crit, haste, hit and expertise start becoming relatively more valuable than before, working like an analogue to block rating in a way. If anything, it may make rogue leather less despicable looking for having those stats on it.

Now, looking at the 6 mobs again, 3 glyphed mauls and 4 swipes now generate 30 chances of the proc, so with 50% crit, we'd net 30% hp and with 30% crit, we'd get 18% hp on average over 6 sec. With a 20k hp pool, that's 6k hp in the 50% crit scenario and 3.6k hp in the 30% crit scenario. Both cases are still less than the potential 13.5k damage absorption possible from blocking fast incoming attacks. In the case of very weak attackers, it's true that a druid could potentially generate more health than damage being done to him, but this is already true in the case of prot paladins and seal/judgment of light and both warriors and paladins with high enough avoidance + block don't even take damage to begin with if the attacks are below their block value.

The remaining questions would be whether or not stam for druids and block value for shield users scale in a similar enough fashion (2.86 stam for druids v. 1.32 str for warriors v. 1.22 str for paladins and 0.77 block value for shield users) and if crit/haste/hit/expertise rating wouldn't overtake block rating in scaling for damage mitigation. There are some implications to consider in pvp, but they don't seem game breaking. In pvp, resilience, avoidance, crowd control and kiting reduce the effect considerably. There is also the issue of losing a healing aura for physical dps, but if it actually were a significant contribution, wouldn't that suddenly make druids a more favorable tank assuming everything else were equal, disturbing tank parity? With the distribution of raid synergy abilities, having something only a feral can bring may bring about unwanted nerfs if the raid utility becomes too large.

If 2% hp and 4% mana per proc is still considered too much, the numbers can be adjusted. The main point would be if the iLotP talent can become an analogue of blocking mechanics that scale with rogue leather stats and stays beneath actual blocking in scaling, having the lowest avoidance of the tanks, lack of scaling from def/parry/block and being forced to use rogue leather become much more justified.

 

Tappin

It's a huge mistake, and I hope someone will post that on the beta forums. I'm fairly certain this will lead to problems and unwanted nerfs like:
a) A primal fury nerf due to nearly limitless rage on large pulls.
b) Some internal cooldown on natural reaction's rage gain.
c) A swipe cooldown
d) An overall damage nerf because swipe spam is so good.

The biggest reason for our huge nerf in TBC was our insane damage doing swipe in dungeons with multiple pulls. It was swipe, savage fury and our swipe idol that caused us to out dps any single target dps'r in dungeons like shattered halls. They removed our 20% bonus to swipe and nerfed our swipe idol. Then they went far beyond that nerfing maul, PI, LotP, Mangle, our armor (probably necessary as evidenced by how early we hit the cap) and health.

Now they're putting us in the same situation. Our damage will be higher overall (intended) largely because our tanking gear has a lot more ap, expertise and crit. Given +30% damage to swipe, new swipe idols, our ability to gain rage on dodges for each mob and chance to proc primal fury on each mob, AE pulls will lead to unbalanced bear situations. In groups with many large pulls we will out perform (mostly) single target dps classes.

Imagine how much rage (and damage) we'll gain with a 10 mob pull, a 40% dodge rate and 5 rage gained on each dodge, 40% crit and 5 rage gained on any of the hits? Our damage will be limited only by swipe and maul cooldowns.

It also doesn't fix one of the issues of AE tanking... it only hits mobs in front of us.

There were many much better solutions proposed that would not lead to nerfs and/or 'bears are overpowered'. All of them could have offered AE tanking ability without making our damage go through the roof.
1) A large threat component to demo roar. (my choice)
2) A 360 degree bear only warstomp with a high threat component.
3) A 360 degree bear only roar that causes another effect like a short term interrupt.
4) A large threat component (without insane damage) to thorns.
5) Make swipe proc IW and give IW a large threat component.
Or others I've seen.

Want to get rich? Stack agi gear for huge dodge and crit. Go to a dungeon 10-15 levels below you. Pull as many mobs as you can find and bear form. Swipe until they're done and loot. Throw some heals if necessary, repeat.

They haven't thought this through. We needed AE threat, not AE damage.

 

angi

I don`t think this game is balanced around AOE farming mobs or our damage in 5-man instances.

We simply could not AoE tank for example at Felmyst or Muru void spawns at the moment, but with this change we can. It has the side-effect that we get a nice AoE-Dmg-Ability if our role is a cat, but i wouldn`t call it overpowered.

For PvE i am really confident now that we can be a good tank and a good cat-dpser. The only thing to make me a really really happy feral druid in wotlk now is an interrupt of the gcd for pvp. Every other aspect was solved in the last weeks.

 

Tappin

Our bear damage was 'balanced' in TBC at a time when almost nobody was raiding and people were mainly doing 5 mans normals and heroics. They have and will continue to balance us around imbalances people see in 5 man content. In fact, most of the reason for this change is the complaints people have that they won't get invited to 5 man groups if they can't handle the AE situations as well as other classes.

I agree it will help on raids. But then any of the other choices could have had the same effect. They could have allowed us to hold X mob threat in raids and 5 mans without affecting our damage output drastically.

 

angi

This time its an intended change that tanks do dmg, if every tanking class does AoE damage wheres the problem?

 

slant

When you compare it to new abilities given to other tanking classes unlimited target swipe doesn't seem unreasonable at all. If it leads to unlimited rage in AE tanking situations and this is tested and seen as an unwanted or unbalanced consequence leading to druids becoming markedly superior AE tanks, it'll need to be removed from primal fury. I doubt it's a real concern for several reasons.

- You'll have a ton of rage from the mobs hitting you anyway
- Swipe is a frontal cleave and does not affect enemies past 180 degrees
- Swipe has a 5y "melee range" radius, versus 8y for thunderclap/consecration, 10y for death and decay, etc
- Swipe generates a great deal less "snap" threat than other class's AE tanking abilities. Since it can be spammed and has no cooldown, each application does minimal threat.
- Some theorycrafting predicts that the current 4 target swipe generates less threat over time on 4 targets at similar gear levels than thunderclap (also at 4 targets) as it scales badly. I don't believe this has had any real testing yet, so don't blast me if this guy has it all wrong.

WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Fix Swipe Scaling [Heavy Numbers]

 

Tappin

Our AE ability is different from the other tanks' abilities in 2 very important ways.
1) Swipe has no internal cooldown.
2) Swipe generates the same resource it uses. With enough targets, it's actually a net gain.

These two factors make buffing swipe very different than changes to thunderclap, consecreate, shockwave, etc.

So we gain threat on 5-10 mob pulls but lose rage on 2-4 mob pulls? I'd rather have the rage on 2-4 mob pulls and AE threat from some other source and keep 2-4 mob pulls as-is. You're probably right that our rage is limitless on large pulls. Is the same true for the other classes? Do they have unlimited rage/rune/mana on large pulls? I honestly don't know.

If our AE threat isn't scaling as well as other tanks, that could be fixed by looking at threat factors of either class or giving us more threat to one of the moves mentioned above.

If our damage AND threat aren't scaling as well as other tanks, that's easier to fix. Just up our damage and threat will follow. If it's AE threat, up the threat on our AE threat move.

Nothing requires our balancing to be done through swipe, though. I contend there were better ways to go about AE threat that had less chances for imbalance. I'm not saying it won't fix our problems. But if it leads to a nerf that will affect us in and out of AE situations, we were better off with something that did AE threat that did not affect our damage output.

 

Lavode

Rage is already effectively limitless on large pulls, with the limit on threat being cooldowns, including the global one. Bear dps will only go overboard if swipe is too good an aoe "spell"- and at the moment, nope, not really. Bear dps does go nuts on multipulls on the beta atm, but only when berserk is up. Triple target mangle limited on the global CD cause a lot of numbers on the screen.

 

• sadris

Only the primary swipe target has a 5yd range. All other targets can be up to 8yds and the ability will chain to them.

'[The main argument against gay-marriage] always revolves around ... "the gay agenda"... Apparently all these gays only want to get married so they can adopt children, turn the children gay (probably using their mystic gay voodoo, passed gayly down from one gay generation to the next), and perpetuate their gayness.'
-- rantingkitten

 

• Falk

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...feralstaff.jpg

Not good. Someone's still a little disconnected on a proper itemization upgrade path here. :P

That aside, I'm compiling a list of stuff to pick up ASAP from heroics. So far, I'll be running the heroics these come from religiously till they drop: (All tank loot)

[Enraged Feral Staff] Blue staff (may as well be epic due to how it's itemized. Thanks Blizzard :|) - Utgarde Keep
[Sharp-Barbed Leather Belt] Epic belt
[Keystone Great-Ring] Epic ring - Drak'Tharon
[Offering of Sacrifice] Blue armor trinket - Gun'Drak

Additionally, these are pretty nice upgrades, especially in terms of armor - mitigation upgrades became pretty important again. Not fussed if I can't get them though - they're pretty much marginal upgrades compared to the four above. Also a consideration is enough gem sockets to maintain meta prereqs.

[Slag Footguards] Blue boots
[Bindings of the Tunneler] Blue bracers
[Bile-Cured Gloves] Blue gloves
[Ravenous Leggings of the Furbolg] Blue pants
[Spaulders of the Careless Thief] Blue shoulders

 

Deathwing

I agree with these two points. With a 1.75 multiplier, tclap does generate more TPS than swipe(this is napkin math including all talents and modifiers). That's not including shockwave. The only numbers I'm unsure about are AP(bear might have more?) and crit(bear would have more innate, but I think Incite would even it out).

I think removing the target cap is a great idea, but it only solves half the problem, and creates others like people have mentioned with Primal Fury. I think putting it on a 6s CD like tclap and then boosting its threat/damage(probably not damage) would solve most problems. Spamming swipe can be a bit tiresome too.

 

coldbear

Upped threat on Demo Roar seems a very reasonable solution - has this been brought up on the beta forums?

 

• Falk

If spamming demoralizing roar every GCD is the solution to holding AOE aggro, we're going to look extremely stupid in-game in practical situations. Just sayin'.

 

slant

I wasn't aware of that, thanks for the clarification.

The easiest fix to swipe is to give it a cooldown and make the numbers match thunderclap. Thing is, that's yet another move to homogenize classes, which the devs are trying to minimize. If they want to keep it spammable, simply balancing threat and damage generation assuming a 1mangle/2swipe rotation would make a great deal of sense.

Forget about shockwave; have you looked at warriors' damage shield? It trounces thorns in both damage done and threat by several massive orders of magnitude. Thorns very much needs to scale with gear.

 

Longhorn

Speaking of Itemization, Falk, I too a little confused by the choice of upgrade path we should take.

To compare, my beta druid comes fully equipped with Deadly Gladiators Band of Victory


84 Stam
38 Hit
37 Resilience (Useless)
112 AP


I have 25 emblems of heroism to burn. Here are my upgrade options:

Standard tanking ring, Signet of the Impregnable Fortress

84 Stam
38 Strength
56 Defense
27 Hit
21 Expertise


Or the typical DPS ring, Ring of Invincibility

55 Stam
28 Agi
43 Crit
38 Haste
112 AP


As you can see the Ilvl are the same for all the rings, I'm just trying to dump the PVP ring since it has wasted item budget on resil. However the tanking ring has semi wasted budget stats on defense as well. Its difficult to choose a clear upgrade, although I may go with the DPS ring even though the stams lower.

Its obvious they want us to wear rogue (read DPS) gear for armor spots, but for jewelry and trinkets its not so cut and dry. Does anyone know if Rawr is updated for beta level 80 combat ratings yet?

 

Duilliath

I suppose I'm a greedy bastard, but I like the 'Bearstomp' described above. It'd give bears one more button to push instead of the same-old same-old. A Knockdown seems fitting and it'd hit the full 360 degrees radius. A small interrupt on it would be funky.

Mind you, 180 degrees on swipe isn't all *that* bad from a technical point of view anyway. You really rather not have mobs behind you as it nixes your avoidance.

A better scaling thorns would be lovely - and one that lasts for longer than a boss fight would be appreciated as well. I dislike the idea of having to go "Sorry guys, gonna be in caster form for a few seconds - gotta rebuff Thorns" if they do give it something more to be the rough equal of the returned damage shields other classes have.

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Thorns scales off of spell power. The problem is that it scales off of the spell power of the recipient, not the caster. Ideally you'd have a resto or balance druid buff you with thorns and then it would hit pretty hard (over 200 a hit) but it's not working quite right yet.