Fallenangel

If we're in the business of suggesting improvements to imp regrowth, I would love to see it reworked something that would scale off crit %. Say, if you have x%, regrowth has 3x% to crit or something like that, or a base increase plus a scaling factor.

 

Anaram

Maybe I'm understanding wrong what you say here but nourish does not get a mana discount for having hots up. It gets +20% healing done.

 

Darian_TruBlade

I'm editing the post, given my obvious gaffe. Yes, Nourish is +20% healing, not -20% mana cost. Somehow or other I confused the two (probably left overs from GotEM in my cluttered mind).

I still hold that Nourish's niche is mana efficiency, although now I'm curious as to the worth of the Regrowth Glyph in comparison. If we have three other glyphs of worth one could make what may become a much debated decision to drop the Regrowth Glyph that much of its intended functionality is covered by Nourish. The argument might shift from "Why use Nourish when you can pick up the Regrowth Glyph and use that instead?" to "Why use the Regrowth Glyphs when you have Nourish?"

I suppose a lot depends on the hypothetical Nourish and Wild Growth Glyphs.

"A man's IQ, yearly income, sexual prowess, ingenuity, physical appearance and generally every other aspect of his character can be condensed down to four digits: his Arena rating." - Zechsy [70 Rogue - Skullcrusher (EU) - 10/23/2007]

 

Erdluf

Norfair, if you want to put coefs on the first post (for easy reference), replys number 4 and 5 of WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Coefficient Testing and Proportional Scaling show

From Delphine, these numbers don't include the 1.88 spellpower->healing conversion:

Lifebloom 0.44 (7 ticks), 0.342 (bloom).
Regrowth: 0.286 (initial), 0.7 (7 ticks). (initial is 50% of a 2s cast, HoT is 50% of a 21s HoT)
Nourish: 0.357 (wo/HoT), 0.429 (w/HoT) (standard 1.5s cast with HoT, 5/6 of standard without HoT).
Healing Touch: 0.857 (standard 3s cast).
Rejuv: 0.8 (standard 12s HoT).

Lulmunlazorz shows .525 for Wild Growth. I'm pretty sure that would include the 1.88 conversion and also Empowered Rejuv (a pre-req for WG). He also implies that he likes a slightly higher value (30% * 1.88) for the direct-heal portion of Regrowth. He gives 2.154 (after 1.88, before ER) for Tranquility.

Wowhead is showing 15s for top-level Rejuv. I would assume that boosts the coef to 100% * 1.88.

 

• Astrylian

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Rawr - A theorycrafting tool for Bears, Cats, Moonkin, Trees, Healadins, DPSWarrs, Retadins, Mages, ProtWarrs, Tankadins, HealingPriests, ShadowPriests, Warlocks, Rogues, EnhShams, Hunters, Elementals, RestoShams, Tank DKs, and DPS DKs!
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Anaram

Just had a quick test with Wild Growth and I'd say it's now "worth casting". I believe the HPM of the spell about tripled. With ~1500 healing spell power I'm getting about 3500 healing out of top rank (which had about 30% shaved off the cost, now 643 in ToL). Level 80 numbers, of course. I still hold that the spell has some fundamental problems but those can be somewhat overcome by boosting numbers.

Nourish is now cheaper than regrowth and heals for more noncrit. It seems reasonably useful for tank healing though I'd still say druid direct heals are well behind other healers when it comes to tank healing.

 

Norfair

Added the numbers from the WoW boards post. Any up-to-date numbers are appreciated.

Keep f**king that chicken.

 

The Inevitable

I've done some testing on both the PTR and on Beta to try to determine the coefficient and HPM of Wild Growth. Here's what I've found:


Wild Growth Rank 2 @ Lvl 70
1248 +Spell Power
5/5 Empowered Rejuvenation
No Gift of Nature
No Tree of Life, ToL Aura, or Imp ToL
No Master Shapeshifter
No Genesis
Ticks: 348, 330, 313, 295, 278, 260, 242
= 2066 total healed
861 base healing
545 base mana
2066 - 861 = 1205 bonus heals from 1248 +Spell Power on gear
1205 / 1248 = 0.96554487179 = 96.554487179% coefficient
2066 / 545 = 3.791 base HPM per person (18.954 base HPM on 5 people) (without Tree Form)

Wild Growth Rank 2 @ Lvl 70
1248 +Spell Power
5/5 Empowered Rejuvenation
5/5 Gift of Nature
With Tree of Life Aura
No Improved Tree of Life
2/2 Master Shapeshifter
5/5 Genesis
Ticks: 441, 419, 396, 374, 352, 330, 308
= 2620 total healed
861 base healing
436 mana with Tree Form
2620 - 861 = 1759 bonus heals from 1248 +Spell Power on gear
1759 / 1248 = 1.40945512821 = 140.945512821% coefficient
2620 / 436 = 6 HPM per person (30 HPM on 5 people)

Wild Growth Rank 4 @ Lvl 80
1551 +Spell Power
5/5 Empowered Rejuvenation
No Gift of Nature
No Tree of Life, ToL Aura, or Imp ToL
No Master Shapeshifter
No Genesis
Ticks: 509, 479, 450, 420, 390, 361, 332
= 2941 total healed
1441 base healing
804 base mana
2941 - 1441 = 1500 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power on gear
1500 / 1551 = 0.96711798839 = 96.711798839 coefficient
2941 / 804 = 3.658 base HPM per person (18.289 base HPM on 5 people) (without Tree Form)

Wild Growth Rank 4 @ Lvl 80
1551 +Spell Power
5/5 Empowered Rejuvenation
5/5 Gift of Nature
With Tree of Life Aura
No Improved Tree of Life
2/2 Master Shapeshifter
5/5 Genesis
Ticks: 645, 607, 570, 533, 496, 457, 420
= 3728 total healed
1441 base healing
643 mana with Tree Form
3728 - 1441 = 2287 bonus heals from 1551 +Healing on gear
2287 / 1551 = 1.47453255964 = 147.453255964% coefficient
3728 / 643 = 5.798 HPM per person (28.989 HPM on 5 people)


The base coefficient with Empowered Rejuvenation is pretty close between Ranks 2 and 4 at between 96.55% - 96.71%, but, fully talented, the difference between Rank 2 and 4 is about 7%; I can only imagine that it has something to do with Gift of Nature, Master Shapeshifter, Genesis, and ToL aura being applied at the end of the calculations rather than being applied to the coefficient (correct me if I'm wrong).

Also, there's one other thing I noticed while I was testing that I believe should be mentioned (probably already known, but probably hasn't been thought about either): Wild Growth doesn't tick until 1 second after its cast. Which means that before even the 2nd tick goes off, a Priest could have applied CoH twice. Despite the increase in healing, I just don't see how Wild Growth can be useful in a 10-man or 25-man raid if there's a CoH priest in the raid. 550 -700 healing compared to thousands of instant healing per cast isn't fair; it'd be more fair if the first tick was instant since then there'd be two ticks on the target before CoH could be cast a 2nd time. 1100 - 1400 healing still doesn't quite match CoH and nor is it a significant amount of a person's HP, but its certainly more useful.

 

Fallenangel

Having the first tick instantly would make this spell flat-out superior to CoH. The first 2 ticks would heal for roughly the same amount CoH does, only WG has 5 "free" ticks, not to mention the built-in 1.2 gcd on WG.
Also I understand not to count imp ToL when checking the coefficient since it's just like having more spellpower, but when you look at the healing done than a talent that provides ~90 SP can't be ignored.
The coefficient on each tick is close to that of CoH. Combined with the hot nature and the AoE, this makes GW scale very well assuming you can hot up a lot of the raid. This is mostly down to targeting mechanisms and positioning, but the potential is there. (very) Best case scenario of rotating it on 5 groups every 7 seconds gives 1SP->5HPS. In comparison, CoH gains 0.75 HPS from 1SP.
Hots (and druids) in general have sick potential returns from SP, due to the extremely high coefficients on our spells. Granted, hots rarely tick for their full value on all your targets, but that's why druids shine in healer-light raids.

 

◊ Lord BEEF

Wild growth is tremendously useful even with a circle of healing priest in the raid. It's much more efficient than circle of healing and there will be many situations where the priest will be better off focusing on other things and only doing circle of healing when wild growth can't keep up.

Circle of healing doesn't make wild growth obsolete any more than flash heal makes rejuvenation or lifebloom obsolete.

 

Kretschmer

Out of curiosity, what kind of MT healing rotations are beta players using?

I'm a former WoW player thinking about resubbing for WotLK, but am used to playing what guild-mates affectionately dubbed a "curse of tounges" pally. Yes, the oddball dreamstate-HT spec. I really enjoyed the build, as it combined massive longevity and strong MT HPS with the challenge of anticipating damage and healing several seconds in advance. Despite the poor reputation of this spec I performed very competitively in T5/ZA content (though that may be due to the quality of guild that my scheduling constraints limit me to). Tree spec was extremely frustrating and felt very constrained, due to the need to keep lifeblooms rolling within their seven-second duration.

Looking at the WotLK talents and spells, it looks as though HT - while more manageable at a talented 2.5 seconds - isn't supported much by our new talents and spells. It's role as a direct heal seems supplanted by nourish and regrowth, while going from NGrace/NSplendor down to dreamstate only nets you ~80 mp/5 and 96 spellpower for 14 talent points. (Sample DS/HT build: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft) It also ignores the synergy inherent in our HoT-orientated talents and spells.

It seems high time to move towards a HoT-orientated talent build like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft that works around layered HoTs with nourish and regrowth as "nuke" heals. Druid heroid healing has gotten a solid boost with the addition of an AoE HoT and rez spell, addressing two of my major TBC annoyances.

Which brings us back to the original question: what kind of rotations are we seeing on test? As a nuke-happy healer will I be happy with WotLK druid healing or will it be more HoT maintenance with the occasional nuke and swiftmend?

A sloppy single-tank rotation off the top of my head:

m
It looks as if there's much more discretion in WotLK than TBC, and that SW/Nuke heals will have a larger role to play. Is this what you're finding on test? Or are multiple-tank fights still dominated by the 7-second dance? This could be an opportunity to take over a friend's direct healer and play whack-a-mole.

 

Anaram

I agree. Personally I'd still hope they would just redesign Wild Growth, though. I think it works best in symbiosis with CoH or chain heal which I find a bit problematic approach for 5-mans and 10-mans. I'm okay with the spell for 25-mans though I think it could be better balanced.

Problems with WG are most evident in 10-mans if the raid is either melee or caster heavy. If there's, say, 3 melee and 7 casters then you will generally need at least 3 wild growths to get the hot on everyone. While both CoH and WG will be inefficient on the melee, WG loses significantly more potential when used on 7 targets. CoH would just pick 5-6 targets twice (no overhealing unless a single CoH is enough to top up the ranged), heal them and be done with it while WG ends up overriding itself on 3 targets.

I don't think the problem with WG is lack of power in the current manifestation: it's a very decent tool to have. The problem is that it has to be balanced with all it's problems in mind. When the fight mechanics allow you to ignore the problems then you've got a fight where you might be swapping off other healing classes for druids. If the fight mechanics make it very difficult to work around the problems, you might have the opposite.

 

Boevis

One nice thing about casters is that there's really no reason they can't stand with the melee to adjust numbers unless there's extra melee damage or "anti-clump" mechanics as seen on very few fights (albeit very important fights, KJ, C'thun, Archimonde) But on those fights AoE healing is of reduced effect anyway

 

lairpie

I know it's not directly related to talents, but what are people leaning towards for professions? I did some searching and have basically come to the following conclusions:

-Nearly every bop item looks to be easily replaceable, include the alchemist stones, JC trinkets
-If attempting to maximize your character, should base your choice pretty much solely around the long term enchant type benefits of each profession.
-Keeping alchemy and swapping between tailoring, enchanting, leather working seems very powerful.
-If you're not going to profession swap, Alchemy/BSing looks to be the best for raiding.
-This is of course ignoring the possibility that they would implement things like the Sunwell chests down the road.

Benefits (as compared to the best thing you could get otherwise)
Enchanting: 38 spell power from ring enchants
Leather working: 37 spell power from fur linings
Alchemy: 62.5 spell power (when flasked) from mixology
Inscription: 37 spell power from shoulder enchants
Herbalism: 200 spell power use consumable, which is stupid for healers, and self hot, also stupid
Mining: 500 hp, stupid for healers
Skinning: 25 crit, stupid for healers
Engineering: lots of cool things that aren't really useful, super haste on use glove enchant, not very good for healers
Jewelcrafting: 27 spell power from JC gems
Blacksmithing: 46 spell power from 23 sp gems in your 2 bonus sockets
Tailoring: ~25 mp5 cape enchant vs 10 spirit or 23 haste (making huge assumption that the cape enchant procs once a minute or so)


More details on my guild forums if you wanted to see how I arrived at some of those numbers.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Fallenangel

There are a lot of fights where clumping up isn't advised - any SW:P fight matches that description. Also standing in melee range forfeits the extra 20% threat buffer casters usually get.

 

lairpie

Any fight where clumping up is bad, coh and WG are going to be bad anyway, but for 10 man fights where the ranged are in 1 general place, the melee in another, having more than or less than 5 in either group screws WG over more than CoH. Moving a healer or ranged to stand with the melee helps that. Like if RoS was a 10 man fight, you could easily have 2 healers go stand with your tank and 2 rogues to make WG work nicely.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Jahdruid

Is that alchemy spell power correct? on your website it says "Mixology gains (50% extra effect from elixirs/flasks)" from reading the profession thread i thought they were not all 50%.

 

Fallenangel

That's far from true. CoH (and WG) are very nice on kalec, felmyst, m'uru and KJ, just to name a few. You still don't want to clump on one spot in these fights for short-ranged aoe reasons - portal, encaps, etc - but can be well within range of the aoe heals.
It's certainly possible that smart targeting mechanism will be clunky for 10 men where you just prefer to cover the entire raid with 2 casts, but it can also make you cast it just once and cover sporadic aoe damage.

 

lairpie

The whole original statement on clumping was having a couple casters or healers move to stand close enough to the melee that they would form 2 groups of 5 for healing purposes with WG or CoH. Then you stated that people can't clump up. Then I said that if people can't clump up enough, the aoe heals are bad. Then you said they were good. You seem to be arguing both sides of the issue. I think most of us assumed that the healers moving to stand with the melee would be doing so in such a manner as to not take more damage than needed. If you were doing like 10 man kalecgos you could easily have 3 melee and 2 healers stand together, close enough to be the only 5 people in range of a WG/CoH on a specific rogue or such but not blowing eachother up, then have the other 5 group around a mage or such, spread out to all get the WG, but not portal explode eachother. The whole point was that you can very easily in 10 mans, and still not impossibly in 25 mans force WG to hit the people you want it to with your positioning.

Upon further looking into the effects of mixology I have no idea. I've seen all sorts of completely conflicting reports on what effect its having. Also, yeah, I'm very glad it looks like they're making profession swapping (ie enchant your rings, drop it, line your bracers, drop it, scribe enchant your shoulders, drop it) not work.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Nitz

I'm not really a profession swapper and I don't have alts to farm stuff, so I took one big moneymaker + one good crafting profession i.e. Enchanting and Leatherworking — it could be useful if there was an upgrade path through raid instances.

 

klofi

1) Profession-swapping: On PTR I´ve seen ring-enchants showing "Enchanting lvl 375 needed" and red for me. I think Blizzard is against prof-swapping. Any 'abuse' who is working in 3.0.2 may be patched in 3.1.0

2) The WG-thing: Most AOE is heavy or often enough to let WG tick at least 2 times, unless raid-healing is done by 3 COH-priests. On single-target-healing or short fights, where mana is no issue, WG is a 4th HOT.

3) Spirit: With improved BlessingOfKing + LivingSpirit 10 spirit will be 12,65 (BoK still muliplicated in WotLK, not additive ???) und you gain 15% of Spirit as Healing-Spell-Power (what is 15%*1,88 = 28,2% healing in pre 3.0 terms) for better-tree-form. This is ~3,57 healing from 10 Spirit. Very very nice stat for trees now.

4) Krit: a druid doing much norish, HT (probably glyphed), regrowth (inithials, glyphed), has a 0,95% instead of the +50% coeffizient with living seed. Even better because LS will not do much overheal, a pure krit will often do. This Druid might be doing right for going with krit on items, not haste or pure SP.

4) Mana: I´m not on beta, only PTR. Bad shadow-priests are now replaced by some other classes. Your Raid-Mana-Battery now is raid-wide not focused on one group. You need 5 times more mana-battries now for 1 group same amount. If your old Raid had 2 Shadow-Priests, you now have to get 2 Retries and 1/2 of a Surv.-Hunter added now for same Mana gained on the healers in the shadowgroup. Innervate still can go the CoH-Spammers.

5) PVP: No new shiny pvp useful talents in restro-tree. They moved charge 2 tier up, made Nature's Grasp learned by trainer. The druid-time in 2vs2 will be over? Sheep-immun in treeform, most casts instant, ... on the other hand pallies, priests shammies got very pvp-usefull telants.

6) PTR bugs?: Idol of the Raven Goddess, no effect on PTR. I´m too stupid or really? Swiftmend plus Nature´s Slendor = same as swiftmend withot NS. Intended?

 

grimtage

Read Swiftmend again. It's *always* been 12sec of Rejuv or 18sec of Regrowth. It's never consumed the HoT to give the whole of the healing, only part of it. Although, this happens to be the whole of it for Rejuv until Nature's Splendor; if you look on live and calculate how much your Regrowth does in HoT ticks, it will be less than it swiftmends for.

 

ranma

Regrowth Rank 12
29% of base mana
2 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 2234 to 2494 (2364 avg.)and another 2345 over 21 sec. (7 ticks)

+healing bonus
30% on Direct Heal, 70% on HoT. (My observation was 28.57% on Direct Heal, 70% on HoT, I takes 30% as correct number anyway)

Talent/Glyph
1. Gift of Nature, Imp/Tree Form, Master Shapeshifter +flat healing or +% healing done on all healing spells
2. Improved Regrowth, crits rate + 50%
3. Living Seed 30% of Direct Crits Heal Goes to next incoming hit.
4. Empowered Rejuvenation +20% healing Bonus Healing
5. Tree of Life Form Mana Cost Reduced By 20%
6. Genesis HoT part +5% (I don't know whether it affects DH part of regrowth like ER. I assume it doesn't)
7. Nature's Grace Pretty much discussed for -0.5s cast time upon crits
8. Nature's Splendor HoT duration +6s (2 ticks)
9. Moonglow: mana cost reduced by 9%
10. Regrowth Glyph: Healing +20% if another regrowth HoT is active.
11. Natural Perfection: Spell Crits +3%

Mana Cost after all talents:
29% * 0.91 * 0.80 = 21.112%
DH: (2364 + Heal*0.3*1.2) * 1.2(glyph for spam). Given 50% crits rate (which is a bit hard to get, but not unapproachable)
DH: (2364 + Heal*0.3*1.2) * 1.2 * 1.5(Crits) * 1.3(LS) = 5531.8 + Healing * 0.8424
HoT (2345 + Heal*0.7*1.2) * 1.05(genesis) * 1.2(glyph) * (9/7)(+tick) = 3798.9 + Healing * 1.3608

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nourish:
Nourish Rank 1
18% of base mana 40 yd range
1.5 sec cast
Heals a friendly target for 1883 to 2187(2035 avg.). Heals for an additional 20% if you have a Rejuvenation, Regrowth, or Lifebloom effect active on the target.

Talent/Glyph
1. Gift of Nature, Imp/Tree Form, Master Shapeshifter +flat healing or +% healing done on all healing spells
2. Tranquil Spirit, Mana Cost -10%
3. Living Seed 30% of Direct Crits Heal Goes to next incoming hit.
4. Nature's Grace Pretty much discussed for -0.5s cast time upon crits
5. Natural Perfection: Spell Crits +3%
6. Nature's Majesty: Nourish Crits + 4%

Mana Cost after all talents:
18% * 0.9 = 16.2%
Heal (2035 + 0.4286 * Heal) * 1.2(assume HoT on)
Given same base crits rate 50% as regrowth, nourish has 54% crits rate
DH * 0.46 + DH * 0.54 * 1.5 * 1.3(LS) = 1.513 * DH = (2035 + 0.4286 * Heal) * 1.2 * 1.513 = 3694.746 + 0.77816616 * Heal

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:
For life-saving spam usage, Nourish is still significant lower than Regrowth for HPS.
HPM wise:
DH part
Regrowth 5531.8 + Healing * 0.8424 for 21.112% base mana
262.02 + 0.0399 * Healing for every 1% of base mana
Nourish 3694.746 + 0.77816616 * Heal for 16.2%
228.07 + 0.0480 * Healing for every 1% of base mana
When your total +Healing = 4191.36, Nourish is better than DH part of Regrowth, around 2221.062 spell power. Although it is not hard to reach, however, consider the HoT part of Regrowth. If you use your gcd to cast some rejuvenation, lifebloom, wild growth, regrowth on other players, to allow some ticks, nourish would ever be under the shadow of regrowth.

My suggestion?

Put nourish in moonglow, put nourish under enpowered touch, bring some of old gift of earthmother back. Add glyph of nourish.

 

Fallenangel

Yes, I read too much into the clump thing (as in stand in a big clump ala twins ledge). It should be possible to engineer positioning to better benefit WG, much like what's done today with CoH and CH.

 

Squarb

What is everyone's opinion on what build to use at 70? I think I've pretty much figured out how I'm going to spec at 80 but I'm having a tough time figuring out the best places to remove 10 points. I came up with this Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft but I have to drop Wild Growth for it. On the other hand I could get Wild Growth but I'd have to drop Nature's Splendor which seems like a more useful talent at the moment. Or maybe I'm just totally off base here.