Restoration WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 23

The Inevitable · 10/13/08, 8:23 PM

My apologies for not posting sooner; I don't typically have a lot of time during the week to post on forums. After thinking about it for a while, I have to agree with all of you on Wild Growth being pretty good as-is for the most part. I think most of my concerns centered around my assumption that CoH would scale about as well with spell power and level as WG, but, after having looked into it further and done the math on it, I see that I was mistaken.

Anyway, I've done some more testing; this time on a good number of the Druid Glyphs and the coefficient of Healing Touch with and without the Glyph. Here are my observations and testing results:

Glyph of Rejuvenation
-Doesn't affect any other spell than Rejuvenation
-Every time when Rejuv ticks and the target is below 50%, a second healing effect occurs called Glyph of Rejuvenation which heals for 50% of what the Rejuvenation tick healed for
-It doesn't matter when you cast Rejuv; if the target is at below 50% when you cast it or if the target drops below 50% after you cast it, the Glyph automatically heals for 50% more

Glyph of Aquatic Form
-Without the Glyph or Aquatic Form, swim speed is 66.6%
-Without the Glyph but with Aquatic Form, swim speed is 99.9%
-With the Glyph and Aquatic Form, swim speed is approx 135%
150% of 99.9 should be 149.95% speed, but it kinda seems like its taking the 50% from 66.6% twice: once from the +50% of Aquatic Form and again from the +50% of the Glyph (66.6 + 33.3 + 33.3 = 133%).

Glyph of Swiftmend
-Doesn't allow Swiftmend to be cast on a target without Regrowth or Rejuv on that person
-Still follows the same rules as to which HoT it swiftmends off of. IOW, it still choses the HoT with the least amount of time left on it.
-Glyph of Regrowth has no effect on the amount healed by Swiftmended Regrowth, despite a Glyphed Regrowth HoT healing for 20% more.
-Since Glyph of Rejuvenation healing effect is a separate heal, I doubt it affects the amount healed by Swiftmending a Rejuv either

Regrowth Rank 12 Non-Glyphed
1551 +Spell Power
No Talents
Ticks for 627
Casts: 3210, 3243, 3121, 3222, 3289, 3187, 3255, 3109, 3185, 3160, 3277, 3155, 3245, 3125, 3307, 3231, 3239, 3171, 3210, 3256
Add and Divide by 20 = 3209.85 average; range of 3109 - 3307

Regrowth Rank 12 With Glyph
1551 +Spell Power
No Talents
Ticks for 752 when Glyph is in effect
Casts: 3797, 3977, 3801, 4022, 4010, 3847, 3733, 3969, 3919, 3894, 4011, 3737, 3939, 3998, 3963, 3793, 3733, 3779, 3819, 3806
Add and Divide by 20 = 3877.35 average; range of 3733 - 4022

Healing Touch Rank 15 Non-Glyped
1551 +Spell Power
No Talents
Base healing of 3761 - 4440 (average of 4100.5)
Casts: 6545, 6369, 6622, 6546, 6334, 6747, 6622, 6361, 6740, 6461, 6858, 6605, 6366, 6698, 6918, 6739, 6900, 6715, 6494, 6455
Add and Divide by 20 = 6604.75 average; range of 6334 - 6918
6604.75 - 4100.5 = 2504.25 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power on gear
2504.25 / 1551 = 1.61460348162 = approx 161.460348162 coefficient

Healing Touch Rank 15 Non-Glyped
1551 +Spell Power
With Empowered Touch
No other relevant talents
Base healing of 3761 - 4440 (average of 4100.5)
Casts: 7230, 7264, 7023, 7275, 7526, 7535, 7324, 7512, 7003, 6926, 6879, 7248, 7291, 6952, 7507, 7199, 7081, 7408, 7545, 7000
Add and Divide by 20 = 7236.4 average; range of 6879 - 7545
7236.4 - 4100.5 = 3135.9 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power
3135.9 / 1551 = 2.02185686654 = approx 202.185686654% coefficient (Empowered Touch is additive)

Healing Touch Rank 15 With Glyph
1551 +Spell Power
No talents
Tooltip still says base healing is 3761 - 4440 (average of 4100.5), but lets assume its 50% of that
Casts: 3376, 3294, 3289, 3415, 3240, 3257, 3390, 3455, 3382, 3413, 3351, 3159, 3220, 3450, 3429, 3393, 3143, 3258, 3192, 3143
Add and Divide by 20 = 3312.45 average; range of 3143 - 3455
3312.45 - 2050.25 = 1262.2 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power
1262.2 / 1551 = 0.81379754997 = approx 81.379754997 coefficient

Healing Touch Rank 15 With Glyph
1551 +Spell Power
With Empowered Touch
Tooltip still says base healing is 3761 - 4440 (average of 4100.5), but lets assume its 50% of that
Casts: 3581, 3680, 3531, 3592, 3771, 3737, 3560, 3532, 3510, 3574, 3554, 3621, 3455, 3766, 3670, 3549, 3581, 3635, 3486, 3699
Add and Divide by 20 = 3604.2 average; range of 3455 - 3766
3604.2 - 2050.25 = 1553.95 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power
1553.95 / 1551 = 1.00190199871 = approx 100.190199871% coefficient
This means that Empowered Touch gets reduced by 50% as well, since the difference between with or without it is 20%.

Healing Touch Rank 15 With Glyph
1551 +Spell Power
With Empowered Touch
With Gift of Nature
Tooltip still says base healing is 3761 - 4440 (average of 4100.5), but lets assume its 50% of that
Casts: 4475, 4374, 4220, 4308, 4424, 4139, 4515, 4192, 4250, 4263, 4181, 4321, 4248, 4327, 4312, 4138, 4502, 4469, 4346, 4390
Add and Divide by 20 = 4319.7 average; range of 4138 - 4515
4319.7 - 2050.25 = 2269.45 bonus heals from 1551 +Spell Power
% Difference Between GoN and No GoN: 19.85%
Strange..Gift of Nature seems to have double the effect on Healing Touch with the Glyph. I'm guessing that somehow its determining the amount of bonus heals prior to the Glyph but then adding it on after the Glyph has taken its 50% reduction. It seems like a bug, but it could have powerful implications if its left in.

Originally Posted by Norfair

I'm wondering about this as well. I think I've read somewhere that the HT glyph just gives -1.5 sec off your cast and not actual 50%. I currently have near 20% haste on my gear. On a 3 sec cast, that would mean about 0.5 sec cast off my HT. Now, with glyph + talents that would reduce my base casttime to 0.5 sec (if all of it stacks). With NG that would result into instant HT that heals for 4k-ish. Anyone has any testing on this, how this stuff stacks? Is haste applied after glyph/talent/NG? Or on base-cast? Would make HT + the glyph interesting at least.

Naturalist reduces the base cast time of Healing Touch, and haste only affects the base cast time and not the original and unmodified cast time. So, for instance, without Naturalist and your 20% haste, your HT would take 2.5 sec to cast, but, with Naturalist and your same 20% haste, your HT would take 2.083 sec to cast. However, whether the Glyph of Healing Touch affects the base cast time or simply reduces the cast time like Nature's Grace is/was unknown, so I did some testing with about 2.13% spell haste:

Without Glyph and Without Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste (70 / 32.79)
To verify: 2.94 cast time on tooltip -> 3.0 / 2.94 = 2.04% cast time reduction

Without Glyph and With Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
To Verify: 2.45 cast time -> 2.5 / 2.45 = 2.04% cast time reduction

With Glyph and Without Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
1.47 cast time -> 1.5 / 1.47 = 2.04% cast time reduction

With Glyph and With Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
0.979 cast time -> 1.0 / 0.979 = 2.14% cast time reduction

Results:
I've heard that WoW has a strange rounding system, so that may account for the slight difference between the tooltip stated % haste and the actual cast time reduction. Nevertheless, this shows that both Naturalist and the Glyph of Healing Touch modify the base casting speed, and that haste is based off that new, modified speed. Also, while Nature's Grace may decrease the cast time of a glyphed Healing Touch from 1 sec to 0.5 sec, it would require 100% spell haste to reduce it to 0.5 sec base and 0 sec under Nature's Grace which would require 3729 haste rating or 2201 haste rating with totem, iMKA, Celestial Focus, and Heroism/Bloodlust (ie. not possible to obtain).

tylanthea · 10/14/08, 3:58 AM

Actually, haste on the tooltip (% haste) is not cast time reduction..

If you have 2% haste, the calculation goes like this..

In the same time that it would normally take to cast 100 spells, cast time will be reduced such that you can cast 2% more spells, ie, 102 spells.

With your 70 Haste Rating, which is 2.13% haste, with a 3.0 cast time, it takes 300 seconds to cast 100 spells.
Which then results in 102.13 spells in 300 seconds, 300 / 102.13 = 2.937 ~ 2.94 second casts.

Regards to Glyph+Naturalist, 100 seconds for 100 spells, 102.13 spells in 100 seconds, 100 / 102.13 = 0.979s.

It's not that WoW has a strange rounding system

tylanthea · 10/14/08, 4:10 AM

Originally Posted by The Inevitable

Without Glyph and Without Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste (70 / 32.79)
To verify: 2.94 cast time on tooltip -> 3.0 / 2.94 = 2.04% cast time reduction

Without Glyph and With Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
To Verify: 2.45 cast time -> 2.5 / 2.45 = 2.04% cast time reduction

With Glyph and Without Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
1.47 cast time -> 1.5 / 1.47 = 2.04% cast time reduction

With Glyph and With Naturalist:
70 Haste rating = about 2.13% haste
0.979 cast time -> 1.0 / 0.979 = 2.14% cast time reduction

Ah... So haste is applied after all the "reduce cast time" effects. This does make sense I guess, I have been wondering why my moonkin gear with 2.6s starfall casts result in 2.2s starfall casts after NG.

With ~200 haste at SWP gear, Regrowth would have around 200 / 32.79 = 6.1% haste.

With regular casts at 1.88 second cast time, a NG proc would result in 1.41s Regrowths.

a civilian · 10/14/08, 4:16 AM

Originally Posted by tylanthea

In the same time that it would normally take to cast 100 spells, cast time will be reduced such that you can cast 2% more spells, ie, 102 spells.

[...]

In simpler terms, your cast rate goes as 1+haste, or your cast time as 1/(1+haste).

moxy · 10/14/08, 6:24 AM

Does genesis apply its +5% to the direct heal of RG in the same way as empowered rejuvenation does?

Azrealix · 10/14/08, 1:46 PM

nvm I realized how redundant my post was.

Smartiepants · 10/14/08, 6:28 PM

One thing to consider in your 70 talent builds is that most of the glyphs which we would use, LB, RG even swiftmend and innervate, are not going to be available come 3.0 as they require northrend herbs afaik.

This is what pushes me over the edge to 8/0/53 today.

Edghar · 10/15/08, 4:12 AM

Has anyone got any HoT timers working on Grid yet since 3.0? I currently use GridStatusHoTs and the numbers wont count down.

Olddrippy · 10/15/08, 5:45 AM

My biggest problem at the moment in Grid is that the "Myhots" status is showing indicators for other druids HoTs as well, and it's confusing when raid healing to figure out if your rejuv fell off.

I added a buff for wild growth, but there I have the same problem that I don't really know who my wild growth hit if another druid is casting at the same time.

I feel like I do a lot more overhealing when I can't be sure that only my own HoTs are showing.

Paininabox · 10/15/08, 10:15 AM

Hey guys, I'm new here.

I've been working on a WotLK resto spreadsheet and I've just finished the basics (talents,gear selection, spell stats). I made a post on the beta forums about it and was told to post it here as well. I'm planning more features and doodads for it too. I would appreciate anyone's criticisms and feedback, particularly in the areas of data presentation and formulas. All coefficients used in the formulae were derived by me.

The beta post can be found here(with the download link): WotLK Beta (US-English) Forums -> Resto Spreadsheet

• uliko · 10/15/08, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Edghar

Has anyone got any HoT timers working on Grid yet since 3.0? I currently use GridStatusHoTs and the numbers wont count down.

Here's a fixed and slightly modified version, lifebloom color is by stack size instead of time remaining like the other hots.

uh...ok · 10/15/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

I wouldn't pick up the HT glyph for 3.0 at all. Having a big emergency heal, even on a 3 minute CD, isn't something I'm going to give up for a pseudo flash heal. I'm undecided between the 8/0/53 with moonglow and 6/0/55, shifting 2 points into empowered touch.

So with the HT glyph it might actually make more sense to use Regrowth with your NS.

I personally am torn about it. A 8/0/53 build with 2/2 Empowered Touch with the HT glyph (take the points from Living Seed or Imp Regrowth imo; I'm not that impressed with Living Seed at the moment) could be a pretty powerful build for both tank healing and raid healing.

I did a 3-healer 20-man TK last night with the HT glyph and without Empowered Touch (a lack of foresight on my part), and though I didn't actually end up using HT a lot, it was definitely nice to have it around as an option. I suspect that as I get more used to having a quick HT around, I'll be seeing its usage increase a fair bit.

It definitely sucks to lose the raw power of NS/HT, but I think losing 50% of an emergency heal is not a bad tradeoff for having an extra spell in your arsenal that you can use regularly. Thing is that even though your NS/HT may no longer be as powerful as it was before, it's probably strong enough in most cases to buy time for your other healers to react. The only place where I found it hurt was in a 5 man, but incidentally, a 5 man is where I also see myself using HT the most.

Though I suppose all this discussion may become moot at 80, since Glyph of Regrowth will make the HT glyph obsolete.

Darian_TruBlade · 10/15/08, 5:16 PM

Regrowth's initial heal is less than Glyphed HT for me currently, but the higher crit chance and Swiftmend action definitely make it a decent option.

Nourish makes the HT Glyph obsolete more than anything else. There isn't much point in having two 1.5 second heals which largely accomplish the same thing, Regrowth Glyph or no.

uh...ok · 10/15/08, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Darian_TruBlade

Regrowth's initial heal is less than Glyphed HT for me currently, but the higher crit chance and Swiftmend action definitely make it a decent option.

Nourish makes the HT Glyph obsolete more than anything else. There isn't much point in having two 1.5 second heals which largely accomplish the same thing, Regrowth Glyph or no.

I didn't even think about comboing NS-Regrowth with Swiftmend, actually, but that's a very good point. I only mentioned using NS-Regrowth over NS-HT because the up-front healing of a glyphed HT is only slightly higher than that of Regrowth (though to be fair, the numbers I'm seeing are skewed because I don't have 2/2 Empowered Touch).

Regardless, I think that the usefulness of NS-HT isn't diminished that much by the HT glyph. During the times I used it last night, it served exactly its purpose: saving someone from almost dying. The difference is that now you'll need to toss a HoT on them or let a chain heal bounce top them off after the NS.

Olddrippy · 10/15/08, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by uliko

Here's a fixed and slightly modified version, lifebloom color is by stack size instead of time remaining like the other hots.

Does that version only show indicators for your own HoTs? I'm at work and will try it out when I get home.

• uliko · 10/15/08, 9:50 PM

Yes, only your own hots.

Spazmo · 10/16/08, 6:30 AM

Originally Posted by uliko

Here's a fixed and slightly modified version, lifebloom color is by stack size instead of time remaining like the other hots.

Sir, I humbly thank you for your efforts. You are a true life saver. Is there any chance you would be able to provide a version of this where lifebloom is colored by time remaining? Thank you so much.

Orin · 10/16/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by uliko

Yes, only your own hots.

Installed and tested last night with 3 resto druids in the raid, and it was very flakey and I often times would see other Druid's Lifebloom hots being shown in my own Grid when I knew I had no LB of my own on the target.

GridStatusLifebloom is also an essential addon that I'd like to see updated.

edit: here are some wowace.com forum threads for each.
GridStatusHots -> Shows your HoT(s) remaing time and total HoTs - Page 6 - WowAce Forums
GridStatusLifebloom - WowAce Forums

Anaram · 10/16/08, 11:50 AM

Following code change should work if you really must update GridStatusLifebloom. However I believe there's a version of GridStatusHots floating around which should do the job of GridStatusLifebloom. I looked through the code and it looked much cleaner than GridStatusLifebloom (which was made in quite a bit of hurry without much understanding on how Grid/LUA works). I didn't actually have a chance to test GridStatusHots for myself yet, but if it works out fine I'll not be updating GridStatusLifebloom anymore.

function GridStatusLifebloom:CountHOTs(unitid)
	local maxbuffs = 40
	if unitid then
		for i = 1, maxbuffs do
			buffName, rank, texture, applications, dispelType, duration,endtime, ismine = UnitBuff(unitid,i,true)
			if buffName and endtime and ismine then
				if self:isLifebloom(buffName) then
					local timeleft = endtime - GetTime()
					self:Debug("last:" ..(duration).."/"..timeleft.."/"..GetTime())
					return applications, (timeleft)
				end
			end
		end
	end
	return 0,0
end

Kerros · 10/16/08, 1:54 PM

With blizzard running out of stats to put on druid gear they have added a large amount of haste to the gear. My question would be if spell haste was maxed and a druid had 5/5 GOTE, would lb and rejuv still be on a 1 second global cooldown or would the gcd for these spells reduce even farther to the .8 second mark?

Olddrippy · 10/16/08, 3:24 PM

I used the gridstatushots posted in this thread last night on Muru and it seemed like it was working pretty well. Now if we can get Wild Growth added so that Grid only shows our own I will be happy

I saw that there was one with Wild Growth added to the WowAce thread but the person claims it's pretty buggy for anything other than 10 mans for some reason.

Thanks for the update though it helped a lot on our first downing of nerfed Muru since we almost always raid with two resto druids.

charriu · 10/16/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kerros

With blizzard running out of stats to put on druid gear they have added a large amount of haste to the gear. My question would be if spell haste was maxed and a druid had 5/5 GOTE, would lb and rejuv still be on a 1 second global cooldown or would the gcd for these spells reduce even farther to the .8 second mark?

GCD is fixed at 1s. No matter what you do, you can't reduce it below 1s.

Rossaroni · 10/16/08, 6:46 PM

Last night and the night before my guild raided BT and Hyjal with all of the new talents. I went with a 8/0/53 build both nights; the first night (BT) I didn't have Empowered Touch or Tranquil Spirit, but last night (Hyjal) I used this build.

My HT vs. my Regrowth, in tree form with only Mark of the Wild on me, looked something like this:

HT: 1.48 second cast, avg. heal for 3500, avg. crit (10%) 5300, mana cost ~430
RG: 1.99 second cast, avg. heal for 2400, avg. crit (30%) 3800, mana cost ~440 (plus the HoT)

I have to say, with reduced effectiveness of lifebloom, having the glyphed HT is so so so much better to have for tank healing. If my tank takes a big hit, instead of spamming RG and Swiftmend (which didn't always do the job pre-BC), I can just hit my HT button a couple of times. It's not mana efficient at all (I found myself with 350 mp5 casting and constant Replenishment still running out of mana pretty fast during spams), but there are times when it is awesome. Take a fight like Azgalor. If you put your SR on and you're resisting enough of the silences, you're going to have a lot of opportunities where you and maybe one other healer are the only ones on the tank. When he takes those spikes (which he still did for us) having the HT spam for just a few seconds is golden.

At level 80 I'd never glyph HT, but at 70 it's an extremely handy club to have in your bag. You're losing the huge OSHI- bomb heal from NS, but in a raid situation (esp. my guild, with its abundance of resto druids) you typically have enough people hitting those buttons when you need them. You can still NS+RG+Swiftmend still, though.

I've definitely found my build until WotLK hits.

P.S., Gift of the Earthmother makes Rejuv + Swiftmending OP. 1.2 second 6k crit heals? Yes, please.

• giansm · 10/17/08, 1:11 AM

I don't think this has been mentioned yet (I checked briefly, forgive me if I missed it) but Living Seed's implementation is not very good. This is basically the problem:

10/16 19:29:53.286  SPELL_HEAL,0x0000000002BD7395,"Gianluca",0x511,0x0000000000266394,"Teckbot",0x514,48503,"Living Seed",0x8,1327,1327,nil
10/16 19:29:53.353  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000002BD7395,"Gianluca",0x511,0x0000000000266394,"Teckbot",0x514,48504,"Living Seed",0x8,BUFF
10/16 19:29:53.355  SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0xF1300059A400103E,"Gurtogg Bloodboil",0xa48,0x0000000000266394,"Teckbot",0x514,40481,"Acidic Wound",0x8,3857,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

Compare to Prayer of Mending:

10/16 20:28:58.446  SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0000000000266394,"Teckbot",0x514,0xF1300059A800103A,"Veras Darkshadow",0xa48,42463,"Seal of Vengeance",0x2,10,0,2,1,0,0,nil,nil,nil
10/16 20:28:58.448  SPELL_HEAL,0x0000000002B74F39,"Gnoid",0x514,0x0000000002B5A87C,"Selynvis",0x514,33110,"Prayer of Mending",0x2,2434,0,nil

The point to notice is that Living Seed procs before the damage is taken, and Prayer of Mending procs after. This means that if someone is sitting at 100% with Living Seed on them, and then takes damage, the Living Seed will do no effective healing. Prayer of Mending (and Earth Shield too, I believe) will proc after the damage and heal it back up. Some parses:

Illidan Stormrage : Living Seed
Mother Shahraz : Living Seed
Illidan Stormrage : Prayer of Mending
Mother Shahraz : Prayer of Mending

Anaram · 10/17/08, 4:08 AM

I personally find it a bit disheartening how long less known issues which appear quite trivial (tree of life aura range, beast slaying) can and will go unfixed and unacknowledged. Living seed is just the latest example but I'm pessimistic enough to think that it'll take well past WotLK release until it gets fixed. It's best to just /bug it on beta with proper explanation (and not trust on other people to do so).