Restoration WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion - Page 26

Nitz · 10/28/08, 4:46 AM

No blue post. This talent is basically dead for the time being.

Kreoss · 10/28/08, 5:22 AM

The question is... has someone reported this to Blizzard? Because they need to know the talent is not working effectively. It's a really potentially good talent, but not how it works right now.

Nitz · 10/28/08, 5:28 AM

This has been reported on the Beta forums, with combat log analysis to prove the point.

Norfair · 10/28/08, 5:43 AM

Originally Posted by tylanthea

Living Seed doesn't seem to be as effective as I hoped it would.

First off, it takes 30% of the "effective healing" portion of the crit heal, ie, if you heal for 100000, but you get 10 effective healing, Living Seed has a healing value of 3.

Secondly, its healing mechanism isn't like Earth Shield or Prayer of Mending, in that its heal comes in before the hit, not after. So if the target has full health, with Living Seed on him, it doesn't do anything.

Have there been any information regarding the above issues? I have yet to see any blue posts or bug reports that deny or confirm these issues.

There is also an upside to this. Healing targets with very low health, that then take damage after getting your living seed buff basically gives them more hp. This can save people from dying because if f.e. they are at 4k hp with 1k living seed buff and they get hit for 4-5k, they won't die where they would if LS would heal after they take damage. Granted, this scenario won't happen as often as "full hp > get hit > get healed", but in cases where it does happen it will save lives. This is also "compatible" with the idea of LS healing 30% as much effective healing as you won't overheal on targets with very low hp. That being said, I'd rather see it the other way around as well.

tylanthea · 10/28/08, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Norfair

There is also an upside to this. Healing targets with very low health, that then take damage after getting your living seed buff basically gives them more hp. This can save people from dying because if f.e. they are at 4k hp with 1k living seed buff and they get hit for 4-5k, they won't die where they would if LS would heal after they take damage. Granted, this scenario won't happen as often as "full hp > get hit > get healed", but in cases where it does happen it will save lives. This is also "compatible" with the idea of LS healing 30% as much effective healing as you won't overheal on targets with very low hp. That being said, I'd rather see it the other way around as well.

Best solution would be to have living seed provide a PW:S type buff that absorbs damage

Norfair · 10/29/08, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by tylanthea

Best solution would be to have living seed provide a PW:S type buff that absorbs damage

Then the talent would obviously be useless as it won't show on the healing meters!

Does anyone know by the way how GotEM works with haste? If you get the talent, your gcd will be 1.2 sec. To get to a 1 sec gcd you would need exactly 20% haste. Or, does it "stack", so that 20% haste will reduce your 1.5 sec gcd to 1.25 sec and that GotEM removes an additional 0.3 sec. In this case you would need about 15% haste to get to a 1% gcd. I have a hard time testing this as the differences are so small and I have no way to check what my gcd currently is.

tylanthea · 10/29/08, 6:14 AM

Originally Posted by Norfair

Then the talent would obviously be useless as it won't show on the healing meters!

Does anyone know by the way how GotEM works with haste? If you get the talent, your gcd will be 1.2 sec. To get to a 1 sec gcd you would need exactly 20% haste. Or, does it "stack", so that 20% haste will reduce your 1.5 sec gcd to 1.25 sec and that GotEM removes an additional 0.3 sec. In this case you would need about 15% haste to get to a 1% gcd. I have a hard time testing this as the differences are so small and I have no way to check what my gcd currently is.

I was under the impression that it "adds" to ths spell haste that you already have, ie, if you have 10% haste, having GotEM makes it 30%. (ie, 15.77 haste/% * 4% = 63.08 haste rating/talent point).

Also, maybe this macro would work for getting the GCD..

/cast Lifebloom
/script local i="Lifebloom",g=GetSpellCooldown,s=g(l),e=0,t,j;while e==0 do j,t,e=g(l);end;t=GetTime();DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(t.." "..s);

Subtracting the two numbers should? give the gcd..

Duscha · 10/29/08, 6:45 AM

It doesn't work for me. I just don't get any chat message.

manatee · 10/29/08, 7:17 AM

I pretty enjoy my new talents nowadays

Pulled 3k effective HPS throughout felmyst with not even 1 innervate or mana potion, mana isn't really an issue if used correctly (WG rolled on every group besides our MT, 3 secs of idle/renew rejuv's on mana stressful healers=CoH priests, and renew WG when gasnova hits, be ready to regrowth if some priest fails massdispelling), felmyst is really the best encounter for WG druids

tylanthea · 10/29/08, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by tylanthea

/cast Lifebloom
/script local i="Lifebloom",g=GetSpellCooldown,s=g(l),e=0,t,j;while e==0 do j,t,e=g(l);end;t=GetTime();DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(t.." "..s);

This was wrong..

/cast Lifebloom
/in 0.5 /script local i="Lifebloom";local g=GetSpellCooldown;local s=g(i);local e;local t=5;local j;while t > 0 do j,t,e=g(i);end;t=GetTime();DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(t.." "..s);

Should work now.. Although it needs ace mods for /in to work

halmmar · 10/29/08, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by manatee

I pretty enjoy my new talents nowadays

Pulled 3k effective HPS throughout felmyst with not even 1 innervate or mana potion, mana isn't really an issue if used correctly (WG rolled on every group besides our MT, 3 secs of idle/renew rejuv's on mana stressful healers=CoH priests, and renew WG when gasnova hits, be ready to regrowth if some priest fails massdispelling), felmyst is really the best encounter for WG druids

I managed to hit the MT with my WG quite often. It all depends on how far away the melee group stands, I guess.

Scurn · 10/29/08, 1:21 PM

Originally Posted by Norfair

Then the talent would obviously be useless as it won't show on the healing meters!

Does anyone know by the way how GotEM works with haste? If you get the talent, your gcd will be 1.2 sec. To get to a 1 sec gcd you would need exactly 20% haste. Or, does it "stack", so that 20% haste will reduce your 1.5 sec gcd to 1.25 sec and that GotEM removes an additional 0.3 sec. In this case you would need about 15% haste to get to a 1% gcd. I have a hard time testing this as the differences are so small and I have no way to check what my gcd currently is.

For these types of talents haste is added last. So it would take it to 1.2gcd then you apply your haste.

• uliko · 10/30/08, 12:10 AM

Wrong, GotEM is -.3s gcd AFTER haste. I currently have 106 haste rating (6.72% haste) and my normal GCD is 1.405 seconds which is expected with 1.5/1.0672=1.405 standard formula. On the other hand my LB GCD is 1.105 seconds which suggests that it's applied after haste.

To verify; put any spell that has a GCD in action button 1 on your bars and write /script print((select(2, GetActionCooldown(1)))) just after you cast a spell and it should say what the cooldown for that ability is (which should be the GCD).

So you need 15.38% haste to reach 1s GCD.

tylanthea · 10/30/08, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by uliko

Wrong, GotEM is -.3s gcd AFTER haste. I currently have 106 haste rating (6.72% haste) and my normal GCD is 1.405 seconds which is expected with 1.5/1.0672=1.405 standard formula. On the other hand my LB GCD is 1.105 seconds which suggests that it's applied after haste.

To verify; put any spell that has a GCD in action button 1 on your bars and write /script print((select(2, GetActionCooldown(1)))) just after you cast a spell and it should say what the cooldown for that ability is (which should be the GCD).

So you need 15.38% haste to reach 1s GCD.

This seems to be true, although it is very weird, since the tooltip for GotEM is in percentages. Giving a flat bonus of -0.3s doesn't seem to fit with the other classes' models for percentage based haste talents. Moreover, for other flat bonus talents, they are calculated before haste, such as Naturalist for HT. We better keep this on the hushdown, just in case someone finds out

StormGust · 10/30/08, 12:34 PM

The GotM tooltip implies that it's reduction is unaffected by haste, and that it will take effect after other haste effects have been applied. If it would follow other haste patterns, like naturalist, it wouldn't state "base global cooldown" in it's tooltip.

Nitz · 10/30/08, 6:19 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Further, if my target is brought up to full health before the next hit after living seed is placed on a target...they get zero healing, wastes the seed, and then take damage. How is that effective? Earth shield was awesome in that it provided an extra buffer...I thought that was the point of living seed.

This part should be fixed in the 3.0.3 build -- it should be consistent with Earth Shield. I believe we even hotfixed it. Can anyone confirm?

The part about it being effective healing is by design.

Source

Some news about Living Seed.

Olddrippy · 10/30/08, 6:59 PM

Yay some good news! It will be nice to have a working Living seed once we can get Nature's Grace and the Regrowth glyph (along with Wild Growth I mean).

Rhaegal · 10/30/08, 7:50 PM

That's good news, but not as good as I'd hoped. As long as it remains based on effective healing, whether or not I take it will depend on my experience in the content. With the 11/0/55+5 build I'll be using, those last 5 points can go into Naturalist (unlikely, as I'm not a fan of the HT/Flash Heal style), Tranquil Spirit, or Living Seed + 2/3 Natural Perfection (or 2/5 TS, or whatever), or even Brambles + something else. Living Seed would only be situationally useful on anyone other than the tank, and there's just too many times that all (or a large portion) of my direct heals when tank healing end up as overheal because someone else healed at the same time I did.

tylanthea · 10/30/08, 10:51 PM

Another issue that needs to be raised is the Rejuvenation glyph.

[Glyph of Rejuvenation] states that it will heal for 50% more if the rejuvenated target is below 50% health. As everyone knows, this is a separate heal from the actual Rejuvenation tick, which is applied after Rejuvenation. However, this poses a slight problem.

Target has 8000 max hp, with 3000 current hp. Assuming no other heals on target, when I cast Rejuvenation on the target, Rejuvenation glyph implies that the target will be healed for 1.5 rejuvenation ticks. However, if my rejuvenation tick heals for 1300, the extra healing from the glyph does not proc (3000->4300, which makes hp > 50%, no glyph proc). In essence, this means that the target needs to be below 2700 hp for the rejuvenation glyph to have any usefulness.

Broken?

Nitz · 10/30/08, 11:02 PM

Did you test this issue ? It is very possible the additional heal is triggered at the same time as the normal tick.

• uliko · 10/30/08, 11:10 PM

I did some quick testing when I got into the beta (so old data, 3.0.1 I think?) and even if the rejuvenation tick brought them over 50% the glyph heal would still trigger.

Edit: Just logged on to the beta and this is still the case.

Lorrianne · 10/31/08, 10:29 AM

After dumping my healing touch glyph and gemming/speccing for the soul reason to LB and WG my fellow raiders a thought occured to me. Are we essentially losing our identity as a healer of sorts.

Our new "flash heal", Nourish, and now our wonderful AOE healing, Wildgrowth is starting to make me feel as tho i am doing the same job as a priest healer( which a i use to be up unti, May of this year). If i see multple bars go down, i hit Wildgrowth and if i see a single target low on health (patch 3.0.2 as 70, would be healing touch spam).

TBC was wonderful in the sense that all healers seemed marginally different yet lacking somehow, but bring a variety and you would have a complete and stronger raid group.

Which has lead me to think, even though essentially, as druids/trees, we have only gained new abilities (which we shouldn't complain at), other than buffs/rebirth, what else do we offer that we couldn't replace with another class of healer? Or conversly are we the class to replace all others?

We can talk about scenarios until we are blue in the face, but having been in a guild which has raided without a resto druid for quite a long time during those horrendously difficult SSC/TK days, are we irreplaceable?

Has our new abilities been granted to use due to wishes and wants of the performance healers out there (chasing the meters).

Or will Blizzard finally understand that maybe its about time, given all these new abilities, that less is more and give us healers focus rather than free for all attitude that has plagued us duing those BT/MH/Kara nights.

Our abilities are wonderful in the sense that, now i am more viable to heal 5 man heroics or perhaps a 10 man Kara, but in a 25 man raid with 8 healers, i feel a little lost/melded into the fray of all new abilities that our wonderful healing compatriots have.

Thoughts please and perhaps, if Blizzard could point us into the direction that less is more, maybe the gifts given to us by Blizzard could improve much further. I want my regen back

Rhaegal · 10/31/08, 10:48 AM

All you're talking about is the "class homogenization" that Blizzard is intentionally doing in WotLK, and has explicitly stated is precisely so that raid leaders don't have to stack raid groups based on perfect class balance, but instead take the best players over the best classes. This is old news.

You're also taking the point a little too far. Yes, we have an AoE heal now, and yes we will have a Flash Heal equivalent at 80 (or now with glyph+talents). Have we lost our identity as healers as a result? Not even a little. Druids are still the absolute kings of HoTs. Priests have one. Resto shamans have one now. Paladins still don't. We have four, one of which can be stacked up to 3x, one of which is an AoE HoT. HoTs are still the strongest things we bring to a raid, stabilizing tank HP extremely efficiently and sustainably. We still have by far the biggest reactive heal in the game (NS+HT). Trees are still trees, and a raid without them will still feel different than a raid with a couple of us.

GTtheBard · 10/31/08, 2:09 PM

I personally feel like a lot of druids are feeling misplaced because raids are so easy and everyone is spamming everything that they have. We're used to having our hots be effective buffers - now that everyone can spam their heals like no tomorrow, the buffer niche that we once enjoyed filling now seems slightly useless.

That's my excuse, at least. I'm eagerly awaiting gameplay at 80, as that should (theoretically) change the free-for-all healing fest that is raiding these days.

Raised · 10/31/08, 4:56 PM

It's been stated a couple times (can dig up links if needed) that mana management was going to make a big comeback in WotLK after being noticably absent by the time healers started getting up to Tier 4 and beyond. Right now, the TBC paradigm was to instantly heal damage as it comes up, because mana was unlimited so it made no sense not to.

In WotLK, if they keep to their promises, the paradigm could very well turn to *requiring* a good portion of predictable, non-lethal damage to be healed by HoTs (Especially now that 3/4 classes have them) and save the direct heals (Both AoE and Single-Target variety) for emergency situations where you can't afford to wait for the HoT to tick.

An example from TBC could be Felmyst:

They can scale the frequency and damage of the mechanics such that something like Gas Cloud would require HoTs to top off people (since they aren't in any real danger of dying once they get their dispel) in order to not run OOM by the end of the fight. However, where a group that gets an Encapsulate, they would need direct Chain Heal/CoH or risk dying because of the much more concentrated and bursty damage.

This also could extend into tanks, requiring even more use of stopcasting for Priests and Pallies because they can't afford to waste mana by keeping a tank constantly topped off and risk substancial over-healing. With no crushings anymore, perhaps tanks will float around 80% health as their normal value rather than the 95%+ that current encounters need to avoid RNG gibbing of the tank.

One can hope, at least.

On a side note: I hope they get rid of Nourish as is and put something more interesting at 80. I think an ability called 'Nourish' that was on a medium-level cooldown (15-30s) and, for very little mana (or no mana), either renewed the duration of all DoTs on an enemy or all HoTs on an ally could be a very interesting tool. It wouldn't bloat a druid's healing stable moreso than it already is, give Balance something to work with, and could encourage the mana-efficiency that seems to be central to a Druid.