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Old 11/17/08, 3:49 AM   #16
Robogep
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Al'Akir (EU)
Originally Posted by 5h0r7y View Post
As balance should i be spamming wrath or starfire after applying dots, or both based on eclipse?
You can find informations ( including rotations ) at the top of the Think Tank Balance thread.

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Old 11/17/08, 4:14 AM   #17
boomchicken
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
One thing I am confused on is for improved IIS Moonfire/Stafire part do you have to have IS up in order to get the benefit?

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Old 11/17/08, 4:41 AM   #18
Hjalte
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dunemaul (EU)
As I read the talent description, the benefit for Wrath requires IS, while the benefit for Starfire requires Moonfire.

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Old 11/17/08, 4:55 AM   #19
Spookeh
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Ratings Buster

Is there a simple ratings buster type mod that'll let me know when to swap out my TBC epics for northrend rewards and drops?

I'm lazy:
i know rawr has been updated, and its great, but the lists of gear in each slot now are utterly tiresome to alt tab and look through when i just want a yes/no answer on a quest reward. tbh, it takes long enough scrolling down the list and finding the item i have got equipped, let alone the drop i'm looking to compare it to...

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Old 11/17/08, 6:34 AM   #20
Hjalte
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dunemaul (EU)
I'm not sure what you are looking for Spookeh.

I am using Itemvalue (Updated version: http://static.wowace.com/uploads/18/...clone-r106.zip) paired with the Scale Factors from Simulationcraft to find out if a new item is better than my current one.

If you're just looking for a Ratingsbuster that is more simple, try Ratings from wowace. You'd probably want something like Itemvalue though, or any of its many alternatives. (Pawn etc.)

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Old 11/17/08, 10:07 AM   #21
Nysus
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Quest rewards not to be missed

Does anyone know of any quest rewards that really shouldn't be missed? I've made the mistake before of choosing the wrong reward or DEing something worthwhile and don't want to make that mistake it again. This could apply to good rewards for any spec.

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Old 11/17/08, 12:27 PM   #22
keepyacoolbro
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by Spookeh View Post
Ratings Buster

Is there a simple ratings buster type mod that'll let me know when to swap out my TBC epics for northrend rewards and drops?

I'm lazy:
i know rawr has been updated, and its great, but the lists of gear in each slot now are utterly tiresome to alt tab and look through when i just want a yes/no answer on a quest reward. tbh, it takes long enough scrolling down the list and finding the item i have got equipped, let alone the drop i'm looking to compare it to...
I use DruidStats. You can download it from Curse.com. Displays the "bottom line" of what a piece of gear will do. And if you didn't know, click Shift when hovering over an item in your inventory and it will bring up what you're currently equipped with allowing a better analysis.

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Old 11/17/08, 1:28 PM   #23
Dorlath
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.

It has some benefits over trying to proc the version that will let you use your higher dps spell whenever the cooldown is up as well. You would still proc the better version more than half the time assuming your made sure your first cast after the cooldown was up would be wrath if you wanted to proc for starfire and vise versa. And without the wasted casting time, your would get more benefit from it when you procced the right version.

Even when you do get the wrong proc, you haven't wasted cast time so it's not as much of a loss of dps as it would be. And since you're alternating casts, you have fewer casts of the weaker spell, pre proc that are lowering your dps.

EDIT:

Changed for a major math error as well as not factoring in that due to the nature of eclipse, the cast after the proc, will always receive the benefit of Nature's Grace. If wrath and starfire were dead even in dps, you would see about a 2.5% increase in dps during the eclipse if a starfire procced it and you than spammed wrath, using the alternating method, over spamming one cast till it procs, then switching. You would only see a 1.5% increase going the other way.

The exact number very heavily based on crit and spell haste. I put the break even point at least a 5% difference with 3/3 eclipse, it'll be a bit lower if you only have 1/3 due to it reducing the chance you'll proc the version you want, but certainly not less than 3%.

Last edited by Dorlath : 11/17/08 at 2:45 PM.

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Old 11/17/08, 1:36 PM   #24
 Adoriele
Happy October 19th!
 
Adoriele's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight
Originally Posted by Dorlath View Post
On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.

It has some benefits over trying to proc the version that will let you use your higher dps spell whenever the cooldown is up as well. You would still proc the better version more than half the time assuming your made sure your first cast after the cooldown was up would be wrath if you wanted to proc for starfire and vise versa. And without the wasted casting time, your would get more benefit from it when you procced the right version.

Even when you do get the wrong proc, you haven't wasted cast time so it's not as much of a loss of dps as it would be. And since you're alternating casts, you have fewer casts of the weaker spell, pre proc that are lowering your dps.


With a lot of haste I'm estimating that you'd do about 19% more damage with wrath during an eclipse or about 9% more damage with starfires. So if starfire was higher dps, you would still proc correctly more than half the time and do 9% more dps during it. So if you could do 91% of the damage during a wrath proc as you could with a starfire, this would be higher dps. But since you've gained 19% without the wasted cast time, you would end up ahead as long as wrath was at least 76.5% of starfire's dps. And that's without taking into account the previous listed factors which would make this rotation even better.
It's been mentioned, but not very thoroughly tested. I popped functionality for it into my sheet, but I don't think I fully implemented it yet. If I remember right, with a full loadout of DoTs, it ended up being a decrease over a Starfire-based rotation (using Wrath during Eclipse), and an increase of the other case, but this was well before the final version of Eclipse came up, so the results are dubious at best. It's something we're looking into, though.

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Old 11/17/08, 1:44 PM   #25
Dorlath
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by Adoriele View Post
It's been mentioned, but not very thoroughly tested. I popped functionality for it into my sheet, but I don't think I fully implemented it yet. If I remember right, with a full loadout of DoTs, it ended up being a decrease over a Starfire-based rotation (using Wrath during Eclipse), and an increase of the other case, but this was well before the final version of Eclipse came up, so the results are dubious at best. It's something we're looking into, though.
Yeah, my math was completely off though, I treating it as if the cast that was wasted did 0 dps or something. I blame not recovering from a weekend of too much WoW and too little sleep. I'll try to fix my numbers and edit my post.

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Old 11/17/08, 3:54 PM   #26
lissanna
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Elune
Originally Posted by Dorlath View Post
On eclipse rotations, I've read most of the mega thread but don't recall the following being discussed. Why not wait until the cooldown is up, and then switch back and forth between your wrath and starfire until it procs to avoid wasting a cast that won't get the benefit? I'll test it myself when I get home from work, but would the first cast after the proc not get the benefit?

If it works, it would be superior in all cases to just casting the higher dps of the two than switching to the other when it procs.
You still have to factor in the human reaction time involved with switching between spells, and realizing that you need to switch from your "switching between spells" to focus-casting whatever spell happened to proc the buff during your switching back and forth.

I think it would work okay in theory, and you may be able to work out some theoretical estimations for it, but I think that for most players, it won't help their damage at all due to reaction time problems. People tend to have higher and more consistent damage when they can count on a rotation, rather than purely reacting to whatever is going on. The human factor is pretty hard to model, but most people who play WoW are not going to be able to handle super hard and complicated spell switching things along with handling buffs/debuffs. It's easier to hit 1 22222 *proc* 33333333 (repeat) than it is to hit 1 232323 *proc* 22222222 1 23232 *proc* 33333333 (repeat with either 2222222 or 33333 happening depending on whether you ended the previous section on a 2 or a 3). At a certian point, when something becomes just too complicated, it's possible for the majority of WoW players to screw it up, and only a small number of players with enough skill to get it right.

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Old 11/17/08, 4:16 PM   #27
Dorlath
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hyjal
Originally Posted by lissanna View Post
You still have to factor in the human reaction time involved with switching between spells, and realizing that you need to switch from your "switching between spells" to focus-casting whatever spell happened to proc the buff during your switching back and forth.

I think it would work okay in theory, and you may be able to work out some theoretical estimations for it, but I think that for most players, it won't help their damage at all due to reaction time problems. People tend to have higher and more consistent damage when they can count on a rotation, rather than purely reacting to whatever is going on. The human factor is pretty hard to model, but most people who play WoW are not going to be able to handle super hard and complicated spell switching things along with handling buffs/debuffs. It's easier to hit 1 22222 *proc* 33333333 (repeat) than it is to hit 1 232323 *proc* 22222222 1 23232 *proc* 33333333 (repeat with either 2222222 or 33333 happening depending on whether you ended the previous section on a 2 or a 3). At a certian point, when something becomes just too complicated, it's possible for the majority of WoW players to screw it up, and only a small number of players with enough skill to get it right.
Granted, I've already got plans to help with that at least. I plan to write a little mod that will keep track of the cooldown/duration of eclipse and make sounds to warn me whenever I need to change what I'm doing. I find sounds warnings to be much easier to process and less confusing than having another timer to watch.

I don't expect it would be hard to get used to:

111111 *beep* 21212 *beep* 222222 *beep* 11111

nor do i think it would particularly distract from whatever else you're doing. I've had good experience with similar mods in the past.

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Old 11/17/08, 4:47 PM   #28
Foxe
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Terokkar
Can someone parse the priority of stats on gear for Moonkin? I've been feral my entire career and I really want to stop the whole melee gig and just stand in back and nuke. Not sure what I should be looking for in terms of gear.

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Old 11/17/08, 5:18 PM   #29
rubik
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by Hjalte View Post
I am using Itemvalue (Updated version: http://static.wowace.com/uploads/18/...clone-r106.zip) paired with the Scale Factors from Simulationcraft to find out if a new item is better than my current one.

If you're just looking for a Ratingsbuster that is more simple, try Ratings from wowace. You'd probably want something like Itemvalue though, or any of its many alternatives. (Pawn etc.)
On this same subject, can anyone recommend a list of updated (i.e. for use with Pawn or ItemValue) stat weights/multipliers for Feral (Cat) gear (the simulationcraft site mentioned above only has caster/Moonkin stat values, unless I'm completely missing anything Feral).

Just trying to figure out if there's any reason whatsoever to hang on to any of the (green) quest rewards while leveling from 70-75 or so (exception being some arguably decent trinket or cloak here and there)... for someone like me who's only wearing mediocre (BoJ/casual guild, stuck in early stages of MH/BT) level gear going into WLK.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

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Old 11/17/08, 8:45 PM   #30
Kasch
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Twisting Nether
Originally Posted by rubik View Post
On this same subject, can anyone recommend a list of updated (i.e. for use with Pawn or ItemValue) stat weights/multipliers for Feral (Cat) gear (the simulationcraft site mentioned above only has caster/Moonkin stat values, unless I'm completely missing anything Feral).

Just trying to figure out if there's any reason whatsoever to hang on to any of the (green) quest rewards while leveling from 70-75 or so (exception being some arguably decent trinket or cloak here and there)... for someone like me who's only wearing mediocre (BoJ/casual guild, stuck in early stages of MH/BT) level gear going into WLK.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
I've been looking for exactly the same thing. I've been holding onto most quest rewards because it gets a bit iffier. Having something to weigh feral stats would be nice, as well as for bear form (got a ring that may be nice, but I'm not sure how to take Rawr recently)

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