Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 3

Humbaba · 11/20/08, 9:50 AM

Originally Posted by Inara

Lootrank values for evaluating resto gear

I am used to using the "red" and "purple" lootrank values from the old "Raiding as a Tree" thread. Are those values still applicable with the new talents?

Red:
Loot Rank for WOLTK

Purple:
Loot Rank for WOLTK

If not... what values should I change to get a more accurate picture of the gear I should be aiming for?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The old values are inaccurate. They do not account for the changes to regen. The replenishment change alone will change the values. I don't have updated numbers, but it's something I'll work on this weekend if no one else does it first.

Originally Posted by Vrakk

Posts on wowhead claim [Idol of Lush Moss] is currently bugged and not increasing lifebloom ticks. Can anyone confirm or deny before I spend the badges?

This is confirmed.

edit: Update. Apparently it is now working.

elmars · 11/21/08, 12:40 AM

Balance druid improved faerie fire.

Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 3%, and increases the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 3% on targets afflicted by Faerie Fire.

For example a feral druid apply it and there is Misery on target already, do i still get 3% extra crit. on that target or i still have to put it on boss my self.

Munorion · 11/21/08, 7:09 AM

That is still unknown. There were some tests, but they had too low statistics to allow any conclusion. Right now, I'd err on the side of caution and assume that you have to put it up yourself.

Rhaegar · 11/21/08, 10:19 AM

I thought this case was solved with the new buff system, meaning that you'll only get +crit by one buff? So it doesn't matter if you cast it or not, it won't give any other bonus?

Under normal conditions (ie Misery not up) your Imp Faerie Fire would overwrite the feral one. You won't get any effect out of imp FF without having applied it yourself.

dukes · 11/21/08, 11:03 AM

The wording on the talent is very ambiguous:

Improved Faerie Fire Rank 1
Your Faerie Fire spell also increases the chance the target will be hit by spell attacks by 1%, and increases the critical strike chance of your damage spells by 1% on targets afflicted by Faerie Fire.

As Feral Faerie Fire has a different name than Faerie Fire, does this mean that you gain 3% crit on mobs affected by it? The other part of ambiguity is whether someone elses Faerie Fire counts for the 3% crit bonus.

The issue is, do you need to waste a GCD on Faerie Fire when there is a feral in the raid plus a SPriest for Misery, or not. It's a pain to test it, as you can't do it solo and due to statistical variation on small samples, also takes quite a while to do.

Roywyn · 11/21/08, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

The wording on the talent is very ambiguous:

As Feral Faerie Fire has a different name than Faerie Fire, does this mean that you gain 3% crit on mobs affected by it? The other part of ambiguity is whether someone elses Faerie Fire counts for the 3% crit bonus.

The issue is, do you need to waste a GCD on Faerie Fire when there is a feral in the raid plus a SPriest for Misery, or not. It's a pain to test it, as you can't do it solo and due to statistical variation on small samples, also takes quite a while to do.

There has been a test on beta with a naked druid (around 3% spell crit) testing it on a same-level dummy and a feral applying the FF(F).
They had something around 100-200 casts, with FF(F) and without any FF each and the result pointed towards it giving the 3% crit, ballpark 80-90% certainty according to statistics.

One could do a final conclusive test with lots of resilience and 3 players in an outdoor arena.
Enough resilience to overcome the crit chance from gear. Or rather, adjust your crit gear to match your opponent's resilience.
If they get a crit with FF(F), it works. If they don't get a crit after enough casts (I'd shoot for ~200) it likely doesn't.

Inara · 11/21/08, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Humbaba

The old values are inaccurate. They do not account for the changes to regen. The replenishment change alone will change the values. I don't have updated numbers, but it's something I'll work on this weekend if no one else does it first.

Oh yes please pretty please!!! Thank you

Lootrank has a "resto druid" template...
Loot Rank for WOLTK - Resto Druid

But there is no value for haste so I don't believe it's accurate either.

Erdluf · 11/21/08, 12:30 PM

The mmo description for Hurricane at 80 is still showing the increased debuf:

increases the time between melee, ranged attacks and spells by 50%

Is that correct?
Are most bosses immune?
If Hurricane is Glyphed, does it enable the Mage's Torment the Weak?
Should a Moonkin (maybe even a Tree or a cat in a 25-man) cast Hurricane on a boss at every Omen of Clarity proc?

Edit: spelling

Unseen · 11/21/08, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by uliko

Yes, Lush Moss is still bugged. I reported the issue and Blizz responded with "working as intended" so just go with the rejuv idol from Naxx for now.

Is there something i'm missing with idol of the raven goddess? To me it seems like the only idol worth using assuming your the only druid of your spec in the raid (and if tree auras still stack, for every tree).

• Adoriele · 11/21/08, 1:25 PM

Originally Posted by Unseen

Is there something i'm missing with idol of the raven goddess? To me it seems like the only idol worth using assuming your the only druid of your spec in the raid (and if tree auras still stack, for every tree).

For Moonkin, it's very competitive (almost always the better choice) with all of the 80 idols assuming you're in a 25-man, possibly also in a 10-man.

• Diameter · 11/21/08, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by Inara

But there is no value for haste so I don't believe it's accurate either.

I was surprised when I was modeling resto gear in rawr that all the best gear had crit rating on it instead of haste. I was modeling with a 25 man raid in mind covering all the buffs.

So, assume the following are true:
1. You have WoA totem and 3% haste from Imp. Moonkin/Ret Aura.
2. Your talent spec includes 5/5 Gift of the Earthmother, 3/3 Nature's Grace, and 3/3 Living Seed.
3. You have enough regen to last whatever fight you are doing (from gear, buffs, a potion, and an innervate)

I'm not sure if #3 will be true for all fights, because I've been feral for a while now, but normally you can switch a few trinkets if needed for extra regen.

With the haste buffs and Gift of the Earthmother, it doesn't take much haste rating at all to hit the 1 second GCD cap for lifebloom, rejuv, or wild growth.

Stacking crit over haste gives you much more healing done. A critical heal will give you 150% of your normal healing done, and an additional 30% (of the 150%) after the next time they take damage. This means a critical heal now does 195% of the normal healing done (assuming that target is attacked within 15 seconds). It also gives you 0.5 seconds of cast time off your next non-instant spell within 15 seconds (Nature's Grace Proc).

That's why I believe haste won't be worth much value to trees at all. Crit definitely seems to be worth much more now, as we have 5 spells which benefit from it (Healing Touch, Nourish, Swiftmend, Regrowth, and Lifebloom's bloom).

Inara · 11/21/08, 4:03 PM

Ahhh TY Diameter.

So... do you think those values in the template seem a good place to start?

ETA: There isn't any value for crit in that template either.

• Diameter · 11/21/08, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Inara

Ahhh TY Diameter.

So... do you think those values in the template seem a good place to start?

ETA: There isn't any value for crit in that template either.

I would suggest using rawr for tree modeling, it's pretty nice. You can insert your talents, gear, enchants or you can import it all from the wow armory using that feature. It lists out what upgrades are out there for you and how much of an upgrade they are. EP values change depending on all your gear and buffs, but as a general rule, I would think:

Spell Power > Intellect > Spirit > Crit Rating = Haste for gearing up as a tree. Later you shouldn't need any haste at all hardly. Intellect is now very good due to Replenishment.

• uliko · 11/22/08, 2:43 AM

Idol of the Raven Godess does nothing for trees.

As for stat values I'd go with; Spell power > Spirit > Haste > Intellect >>>>> Crit

Even with Blizzard trying to make crit desirable by trees I have to say they've failed pretty hard. All it does is a temporary boost to HPS (bigger hit and Nature's Grace) and a seed (if it worked on overhealing it would be decent). Such a boost is useless since whatever we're healing needs to survive even if we don't crit so it's only a nice bonus but nothing you can rely on. Other healers have some useful side effect (Holy Concentration, Improved Water Shield, Illlumination) which are always good.

Spell power first is obvious since it's the only way to increase HPS of hots and your HPM. Intellect is very strong now with replenishment and as long as you have enough spirit so innervate gives you a full mana bar it has double effect (1000 extra mana translates into 2000 for every fight with innervate). Not so sure about actually putting a value on spirit since I'd never use an item without it and after that it usually comes down to haste vs crit vs mp5 and haste just beats those two easily. Initally I had intellect placed highly but after actually doing the math on it it turns out to not be that good after all. For fights less then 4 minutes int gives more mana then spirit (assuming 1000 int and that you innervate yourself and it gives you full mana) and over 4 minutes spirit gives more mana.

coldbear · 11/22/08, 2:46 AM

Originally Posted by charriu

I use ClassTimer for most of the stuff. Pretty neat bars out of the box for pretty much everything except cooldowns - you really want to have DoTimer set up for them.

If you don't like that solution, Ash_Prominence, which comes with DoTimer if I'm not mistaken (at work, so no access to my addons), can pull out buffs/debuffs you specify as a separate bar. That way, you can still have PlayerAuras to track different stuff, if you want.

Thanks everyone who responded about the addons list and tracking
1. debuffs
2. cooldowns
3. Savage Roar.

Obviously everyone has their own set up for this, and I got some good ideas about mods to check into.

My main idea with exploring DoTimer was that it's the only mod I've found that will let me track all of these things. If you use DoTimer to its fullest I see no reason to mess with and keep updated a Cooldown timer mod or separate mod to target debuffs like Rake/Mangle/FFF/Rip, for example?

I don't mean to hijack this thread for addons/UI discussion - and really addons and all other 3rd-party resources deserve their own thread in the EJ Druid forum (with a list of addons sorted by functionality for druids, and all useful blogs/websites/apps), but with the advent of Wrath feral druiding became a lot more about debuff and Savage Roar management, and a lot less about a rotation.

Normally doing this is either a pain in the butt with the stock UI, or you download and keep updated several different addons to do it. I found a way to do it all with just one addon. Complicated but works and cuts down on the number of addons you have to **** with.

DoTimer - Great addon. Massive learning curve, not unlike the Discord UI project back in the day. Took me two weeks to figure this out:

There is a way to set it up to track target debuffs, your own cooldowns, AND SAVAGE ROAR. All in a clear, concise way right in the middle of your screen.

Download and install DoTimer from WoWInterface or Curse.
Open up game menu - 'Interface' - 'AddOns' - expand 'DoTimer'

Uncheck 'Simple Mode'
Select 'DoTimer' in the submenu of 'DoTimer'
Select 'Anchor to Customize:' DoTimer Anchor
Checked 'Default Anchor' (unsure about this step)
Move these timers here: type in Savage Roar and hit enter
Check 'For Below Timers' (unsure about this step)
Check 'Preserve Tar. Data' (unsure about this step)

If it doesn't work you may have the Max Num Groups for the DoTimer Anchor set to 1, or you may have Savage Roar previously manually moved to a different anchor. PlayerAuras must also apparently be Enabled. I ended up dragging the rest of the PlayerAuras offscreen since I like the way Blizzard organizes buffs (if not their position), and haven't figured out how to make a fool-proof and nice-looking change to it. The less change to the UI the better usually.

Expand the 'DoTimer Anchors' menu
Select 'DoTimer Anchor'
Set Max Num Groups to 0 (which is - or should be - the default value iirc, I had it changed since I'm only interested in my current target debuffs and Savage Roar).

Now just block all the target debuffs you're not interested in, and set up your cooldowns to however you prefer them displayed - I personally went with icons (+size from default) and a numeric countdown. Move the anchors to somewhere central and you're good to go. The debuffs and cooldowns should be a lot easier to figure out, and work fairly well out of the box.

Tebasile · 11/22/08, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by uliko

As for stat values I'd go with; Spell power > Intellect > Haste > Spirit >>>>> Crit

Even with Blizzard trying to make crit desirable by trees I have to say they've failed pretty hard. All it does is a temporary boost to HPS (bigger hit and Nature's Grace) and a seed (if it worked on overhealing it would be decent). Such a boost is useless since whatever we're healing needs to survive even if we don't crit so it's only a nice bonus but nothing you can rely on. Other healers have some useful side effect (Holy Concentration, Improved Water Shield, Illlumination) which are always good.

Spell power first is obvious since it's the only way to increase HPS of hots and your HPM. Intellect is very strong now with replenishment and as long as you have enough spirit so innervate gives you a full mana bar it has double effect (1000 extra mana translates into 2000 for every fight with innervate). As for haste vs spirit I'm leaning towards haste to increase the HPS of Nourish spam. Alot of you might have mana problems as you hit 80 still using 70 gear but after getting new items and getting up to about 20k mana pool in a raid alot of your mana problems goes away. So if your spirit is enough that innervate leaves you with full blue bar I'd go with haste. Sort of a moot point to compare spirit vs haste though since nearly every item has spirit anyway.

For my tree I'm doing SP > Spirit/Haste > Crit > Int

I'm looking for the reduced time of Nature's Grace from the crit, not HPS. RLB the tanks, have the LB & Swiftmend glyphs up, and go to town with the extra cast time left over in-between rolls. LB was nerfed, but not so much that the extra consistent cushion for MT healers won't help (and prefer to save my Innervate for my DPSers).

• Playered · 11/22/08, 1:22 PM

I think you are confused, you wont be skipping Replenishment which comes from Retadins, SPriests & Survival Hunters while raiding unless your guild is very very confused or severely lacking on class diversity.

The Lush Mosh Idol works correctly now too.

Tebasile · 11/22/08, 1:24 PM

No, no, I was referring to the 3 point Replenish talent in the resto tree. If the reference over-all is coming from replenish elsewhere then I AM confused

I thought it was a reference to tree builds, not to over-all raid (Replenishment). >.< My bad, and fixed the original reply.

coldbear · 11/22/08, 9:11 PM

Just in case there are any very smart Geek Squad-type people out there that want to make a quick buck - I'm offering a rl $50 in US dollars bounty to whoever manages to show me how to get Rawr working on my 2.8 GHz iMac (with an additional $50 going to Astrylian - it's only fair).

More details at Rawr - Discussions

Moknim · 11/23/08, 2:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tebasile

For my tree I'm doing SP > Spirit/Haste > Crit > Int

I'm looking for the reduced time of Nature's Grace from the crit, not HPS. RLB the tanks, have the LB & Swiftmend glyphs up, and go to town with the extra cast time left over in-between rolls. LB was nerfed, but not so much that the extra consistent cushion for MT healers won't help (and prefer to save my Innervate for my DPSers).

SP > Spirit > Crit > Int > Haste

I am thinking things may shake down more like this. I just don't see crit nor haste being that important given that Regrowth is at 50% just from talents, there is an awesome regrowth glyph, and we are down on GCD with GotEM. I guess if we end up doing a lot of nourish spamming...but I am hoping that is not where we end up - if I wanted to do that I would have rolled a paladin. Crit gives us Grace, but I am thinking that we will be using Regrowth to proc grace, not trying to stack crit so nourish will proc it. Then again, I could be way off.

As a side note, I just joined (after reading for over a year), but could someone make a general resto thread for stuff like this?

Varthara · 11/23/08, 7:54 AM

Has anyone seen any math done on the new heroic badge trinket?

[Sundial of the Exiled]

If crit still comes up short compared to +dmg and haste like it did pre-wotlk...

is there a chance that [The Egg of Mortal Essence] might be the better choice even though the proc wouldn't help your dps?

Does anyone plan on creating a new moonkin DPS spreadsheet for wotlk?

I heard that the 1% chance to always miss against raid bosses was removed, is this true?

Inara · 11/23/08, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Moknim

As a side note, I just joined (after reading for over a year), but could someone make a general resto thread for stuff like this?

Please!!!

Also... since RAWR doesn't work very well on a mac (I can only barely get it to work at my work computer which has vmware) Some lootrank values would be great.

• Adoriele · 11/23/08, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by Varthara

Has anyone seen any math done on the new heroic badge trinket?

[Sundial of the Exiled]

If crit still comes up short compared to +dmg and haste like it did pre-wotlk...

is there a chance that [The Egg of Mortal Essence] might be the better choice even though the proc wouldn't help your dps?

Does anyone plan on creating a new moonkin DPS spreadsheet for wotlk?

I heard that the 1% chance to always miss against raid bosses was removed, is this true?

Not yet. Not a chance in hell. Already exists. Yes.

Madrail · 11/23/08, 2:14 PM

In line with someone asking about quest rewards to keep earlier, I was wondering if anyone has been doing any number crunching towards the upcoming changes to feral weapons? Obviously we wont know for sure until we see what they turn the FAP on them into, but assuming they convert the FAP into raw weapon DPS, has anyone been comparing the currently available staffs, or even making a list of desirable two-handed maces?

Mithuata · 11/23/08, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by Inara

Please!!!

Also... since RAWR doesn't work very well on a mac (I can only barely get it to work at my work computer which has vmware) Some lootrank values would be great.

Here's what I'm using:

DPS:AP = 2.6134
Str:AP = 2.332
Agi:AP = 2.7467
Crit Rating:AP = 2.4607
Hit Rating:AP = 3.1423
Weapon Dmg:AP = 6.6309
Expertise Rating:AP = 3.1423
Haste Rating:AP = 2.6049
Armor Pen Rating:AP = 1.6862

I'm not even remotely confident that these are good values. I got them by using Rawr to come up with the best possible gear set I could find (with maxed out raid buffs), and then popped the AP/Crit/etc values into Toskk's calculator to generate some stat:AP ratios. If I haven't made a mistake in the process, this should generally work in such a way that, the closer you get to the optimal gear set, the better off your DPS will be.