Hatesfury

Hello EJ. Hoping that you guys can help out with 2 simple questions.

1) I messed up my gear a bit, and lost some hit. I'm in the process of fixing this, however i'm not sure how to weight hit vs. SP. I understand that hit is extremely important, but logically to me giving up (for example) 50 SP for 10 hit rating seems like it would be less DPS than being slightly under hit cap. Could anyone give me atleast a rough rating system for hit vs sp. I've seen the rating charts (hit>sp>int etc) but i can't seem to find numerical weights.

2) I'm curious about my DPS. With my current gear, and only moonkin aura and paw, my stats are around 2k sp, 25% crit, 210 hit, 200 haste, and very little spell pen. I'm specced with a fairly standard build. Currently i'm only pulling around 3k DPS, going up to around 3.5k IF i get lucky with my eclipse proc's. My rotation is MF, IIS, Wrath till proc, starfire, rinse and repeat, with my trees thrown in at "appropriate" times. Does that ammount of DPS look in-line with my gear\spec, or is it low. (to clarify, i'm not asking for hand holding. I can use the forums to re-evaluate my spec\gear\etc, just want to clarify if i'm pulling appropriate DPS, or if i'm doing something wrong). I'm fairly new to WoW so i'm not sure how much adding 100 SP or 5% crit should influence my overall DPS, and as such, it's hard for me to tell if i'm "doing it right".

 

Ultadarra

I am a little confused here, I am looking at rawr for a gear ranking list, and it has some massive differences between some of the other places I normally check for gear ranks. The places I normally check are lootrank, EJ forums, Rawr, Emmerald, and maxdps (although maxdps doesn't hold for tanking). Any ideas why? Is there a definitive system people use?

Or are druids so dependant on tanking role (I am currently main tanking) and group make up that the gear is very situational?

 

Boevis

Maxdps doesn't hold for anything druid related, and I don't hold with lootrank. Emmerald states that he uses a mathematical formula to determine the ranking, so his list isn't very dynamic, the value of X changes when you have more or less Y compared to what he's using as a baseline, simply putting on the #1 item in every slot very rarely results in the actual Best set. FbN hasn't been updated with the latest "tanking" loot ([Dark Edge of Depravity] is clearly better than [Twisted Visage]), but the values are accurate (but subjective with upgrades, as always)

I still hold with Rawr though, just remember it's important to change the thresholds depending on what you're tanking, your priorities will change drastically between doing Hodir and Thorim-Hard.

 

isLuForever

I had a quick question in regards to healing, because apparently I've become terrible at it since Sunwell. I'm running with 2300 SP raid buffed, about 19k mana, and PvP-specced (no GotEM, Wild Growth, Revitalize, or Living Seed). I seem to put out about 2.5k HPS in Ulduar.

I ran Vault earlier with another Resto Druid, same spec as me, in roughly the same gear. He was pushing 3.6k HPS. Also, while I run OOM fairly quickly and have to innervate every fight, he went through it all without ever using his.

I have no idea what he was casting, other than that he doesn't have Wild Growth either. Currently, I'm just stacking a Rejuv + LB on the tank, and tossing a Rejuv to raid members that take damage. I'll also spam Nourish on the tanks in between. I'd just like to know what I'm doing so wrong to be over 1k HPS behind somebody with the same gear and same spec as me.

 

Grizabella

There is your problem.

Also, you need to get your spirit back up to 900+, you simply don't have the gear to be going for spellpower as high as you have yet. You can't expect to compete in PVE whatsoever if you are PVP spec'd with PVP gear and gemming for stamina.

 

isLuForever

Looks like you missed one key part of my post. The other Druid was specced identical to me; that is to say, he did not have any of those talents either, as well as having near identical gear. I'm not overly worried about my Spirit at the moment, simply because I haven't seen a single piece of Leather resto gear drop in the last 3 weeks of raiding, and the clothies are always given priority on Cloth.

As far as gear goes, I'm in full T7.5/T8 with the exception being my helm. I'm gemmed strictly for INT at the moment. The 2300 SP I have is just natural from my gear. I'm not gemming for it, and in most cases I'm not even enchanting for it, other than a Fur Lining and my Weapon enchant.

As I said, I heal Ulduar just fine on the rare occasions where I need to go Resto, but after seeing an equally geared, same-spec Druid outheal me by over 1k HPS today in Vault, I'm very interested in what I may have been doing differently; especially since I'm usually top healing in Ulduar, and we have no trouble at all as far as healing goes.

TLDR: PvP-specced Druid in full T7.5/8 does 1k less HPS than same-spec, same-geared Druid. Why?

 

Eddyqw

Rolling Lifebloom (in my opinion) is no longer wise. Keep a single LB on the tank, or even refresh it just before it ends until you have a 3-stack, but then let it bloom for the mana return - especially if you're having mana issues. I generally also keep Regrowth on a tank if I'm healing one, before I commence spamming Nourish.

If the other druid had 4T8, then he'll beat you out every time (the bonus really is that powerful). If not, then you just need to react faster/play better than him, which largely comes down to practice.

 

MrBones

The ratio varies considerably - at level 77 I'm on about 2 haste to 3 SP for example, but a while back (1 level and a few different pieces of gear) and it was at 1:1. I get the ratio from using DrDamage ( an addon) and then looking at how 1 point of Hit will increase my Starfire damage vs how one point of SP will increase my Starfire damage.

The addon itself gives you the ratios, so you can choose accordingly.

As for 2), have a look at what the spreadsheet or simulation says you can get, then compare. I thought (but I'm really not sure) that there are better rotations e.g. from weaving Wrath and Starfire for eclipse.

I assume you are PvE - spell pen is not useful for PvE

 

Grizabella

Your case is too specific and incidental to analyze. Get some combat logs parsed and maybe we can help. I am skeptical that all of the variables you are claiming were equal were actually equal. If they were, he is simply a better healer at choosing his targets, or better at the quantity of spells he's casting per minute.

 

Mondas

Agreed. Was he flasked? How was his gear enchanted? You say you gem and enchant strictly for Int - maybe he prioritizes spell power like most Restos. What metas do you both have? Trinkets? What's his regen while casting? What's his name? We can't even armory him to compare gear. What Glyphs do you both use?

Help us help you.

Boards don't hit back.

 

Deathrind

I was trying to see where I fit on Toskk's graph of AP vs crit%. Is it to be figured unbuffed including discounting LotP?

When it says Str>Agi or Agi>Str, does that mean just look for more agi/str on gear or actually gem and enchant for it?

 

tijean66

Hi... my main spec is feral dps. I recently dual spec and tried boomkin but didn't like it. So I would like to use my dual spec for PVP but I don't know how to use my points... I surf the net but I couldn't find a clue about feral PVP talent tree.

Does it mean boomkin is better for PVP ? So if someone can refer me a feral talent tree for PVP and best glyphs.

Thank You.

 

Fegis

since we're spending 90% in the 'moonlight' from the druid NPCs
how much haste do we need so that the haste boost from the moonlight will haste cap us?



Thanks in advance!
Fegis

 

Tronn

I had a discussion with our feral about Agi vs. ArP. He argued that Agi was always better while I cited Murna in this forum ("At about 200 - 300 ArPen, ArPen becomes the best stat [...]"). Do ferals in T8,5-content only go for ArP when Hit and Expertise is capped? And when is the moment that you should re-gem? Do those 200-300 ArP refer to ArP on gear ore what?

 

Murna

Simulators and calculations are showing, that ArP is the best stat. Point for Point, ArP will grant you more DPS than Agi - the precondition is that you need about 200 - 300 ArP (depending on the rest of your gear and your idol).


There are only 4 sources of ArPen.
a) Directly on gear. This, of course, counts to this "magic threshold", where ArP becomes better than Agi.
b) The Elixir of Armor Piercing, which is a bad idea since the Flask of endless rage is much better.
c) The Hearty Rhino food. This counts.
d) Active procs like Grim Toll, Mjolnir Runestone or the Executioner Weapon Enchant. This does not count, I am talking about passive ArP.


So if you reach say 250 ArP with methods a and c - start gemming for ArP.


Of course I have to say, that the Agi vs ArP discussion also depends on your playstyle. If you feel better with lots of combopoints you are free to gem for Agi. Agi isn't a bad stat at all. If you feel more comfortable going for Agi then do so! It would be the better option, if you have to offtank from time to time, aswell.
Going for Agi instead of ArP can give more burst, but ArP will stabilize your DPS cycle. Actually your melee hits become stronger, thus making auto attack more important. Also, if you manage to shred a lot, ArP should be your choice.

Nobody said you HAVE to be hit and/or expertise cap.
This topic has been discussed hundreds of times in these forums.
Hit and Expertise are not as good as Agi, ArP and even Str. Of course it smoothes out your DPS cycle, since many misses/dodges can be quite chaotic. But normally there's at least some Hit/Exp on your gear so you shouldn't miss THAT much. In theory, Agi and ArP should always grant you more DPS.

Again - if you feel more comfortable knowing every attack will hit, go for it. If you feel unsure and have trouble keeping your DPS cycle up and running, Hit and Exp can help you stabilize it.

And finally there are very few exceptions: On XT for example, Hit might be much more important since you'd like to hit every single shred on the heart.

 

Jone

Odds are odds: if hitting harder 99% of the time and missing 1% is better over a 10 minute fight, it's better over a 1 minute fight too. That, the same logic that applies to a shred on Vezax applies to a shred on XT's heart, until the fight is so short you can't finish burning a whole energy bar. Since that's 15 seconds even with berserk, there is no boss in all of Ulduar that encourages different priorities. The only real exception I can see is the raid DPS lost to missed debuffing: FFF with a 6 second CD could cost the whole raid a lot of damage while they wait it out.

 

Olddrippy

Do treants scale with the caster's spell power, haste, or crit? I was wondering if it is good to get trinket stacks up for Illustration of the Dragon Soul and Eye of the Broodmother before dropping them. Or if a proc from something like Dying Curse will increase their damage. I'm mainly asking for fights where you know bloodlust will be after the first three minutes of the fight, and you are dropping them early on.

 

• Adoriele

Spellpower for sure, probably not haste or crit, though I haven't seen strong evidence either way. In 3.2 they'll definitely scale with hit, not sure if they do right now.

 

Melador

But the point is to reduce variance by capping hit. On portions of fights like XT's heart, it may be better to do 95% of optimal damage 100% of the time, rather than 100% of optimal damage 95% of the time and have that 5% suck bad enough to miss killing the heart.

A better example is probably something like Freya roots (even though I think they're level 80 so we're all probably hitcapped against them anyways). If you happen to be the guy that got to a root quickly, being 5% shy of optimal in your damage to it probably isn't a big deal. But if you're hitcapped and have a couple unlucky misses and it takes 5 seconds longer to kill and the rooted person dies, that can easily be the start of a wipe.

Personally, I doubt it matters enough to gear/gem non-optimally over the long run, but I can see the point being made.

 

Pike

Am I crazy, or did survival instincts previously work when slag potted? I could have sworn it used to, but I've not been able to use it the last two or three Ignis kills I've attended.

 

kerg99

Up until now I have been lazy and inputted the stat values from Moonkin Beginner Guide, updated for 3.1.3 post into pawn to get a fast item comparison.

Recently I have begun to realize that my Crit rating is to low as it can take me a very long time to Proc Lunar eclipse, so I downloaded WrathCalc 1.3.1, inputted all of my info and the results surprised me.

My armory The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently I am at 577haste and 273crit rating and the spreadsheet gives me values of 0.69dps for haste and 0.80dps for crit and if I strait up swap 100haste for 100crit on the spreadsheet it gives me values of 0.72dps for haste and 0.76dps for crit.

Is it seriously telling me Crit>haste with my current setup or am I really dumb and reading this wrong?

Also are the DPS values next to my stats "safe" EP vlaues to plug into pawn for easy item comparison?

Thanks in advance.

 

• Arawethion

Try checking my WrathCalcs I posted here:
Moonkin Raiding

I don't actually remember offhand how Ado's last version of the spreadsheet handled haste, but that sounds like a suspiciously low marginal value. Crit > Haste for Lunar shouldn't really be appearing at any current stat values.

I'll to finalize some stuff in the sheet and post it back on the WC thread; I know the updates I put in the general Moonkin thread get lost quickly.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Ruin

How do +% damage effects from boss mobs effect ticks (ex. IC rune of power)? I'm 99% sure that when you have it, it just multiplies the damage you normally would have done so casting a dot inside of it and running out is no different then casting a dot and running in provided the same number of ticks.

Also quick question about the glyph of starfire.

When i have a temp boost of spellpower (aka dying curse proc), and i cast a dot (IS/MF) the whole duration of the dot gets the boost even if the proc falls off before the dot does.

But when i cast a glyphed starfire on a moonfire, the debuff graphic is reset; this leads me to worry that if i had cast MF during a temp boost, refreshing it with glyphed SF might cause all new dot ticks to hit for the lower spellpower.

is this the case?

 

• Arawethion

The DoT retains any %-based damage buffs you had at the time you cast it.
Wow Web Stats

Same for Shadow Crash; I've tested that.

Looks like extended Moonfires don't behave differently:
Wow Web Stats

e: whoops, wrong thread. Reply to this: Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Alerian

Any DoTs are calculated off the buffs (and debuffs) you have at the time you cast it. When you extend it, it continues at the same damage or healing that it had when it was first cast. Lifebloom (although a HoT and not generally what you were asking about) appears to be a semi-weird oddity since it does not follow this rule.

e: Referring to below, a better term would probably be "extend," rather than refresh.