Druid: Simple Questions/Simple Answers - Page 71

Hatesfury · 08/27/09, 10:00 PM

I've recently started using rawr to compare gear, but i've run into some problems using it with my resto spec. The default settings for rawr when going resto is to weight burst (or throughput) at 25% and sustained healing at 75%, with a default rotation of "rejuv spam". This kept showing me as TERRIBLY (as much as 17% using my own innervate) lacking on mana\mp5, which didn't mesh in the slighest with in-game experience. Changing the rotation to "raid heal with lifebloom\ slow roll 3x LB on 1 tank" brought me to a much more accurate 5% mana limitation, which felt far more accurate.

It appears that the "rejuv spam" settings is litteraly calculating mana used such that you start with 5x rejuv\WG rotation from the first second of the fight, and continue this like a robot until you're OOM. The 2nd option that i've chosen seems like it accounts for rejuv being used\spammed only when necessary, and does a better job of handling mana\time till OOM better. I have raided all current 25m content, and have never found a situation where a hard locked 5ruj\WG would be necessary or even smart (but i have not done hardmodes). Is the damage truely this much higher in hardmode, or is this just a poor option for looking at mana regen?

I'm curious how\what others are using to compare different gear sets\upgrades. If rawr is a poor tool please point me towards the better one, otherwise i'd be curious to know what settings (in terms of itemization balance and rotation) others are using when they look at upgrades for their tree.

Yllidan · 08/28/09, 5:37 AM

It's for sure a totally noobish question, but how do I use the spell coefficients (from the pre TTT thread) for i.e. Starfire?
1.646 (Starfire coefficient) * SP (fullbuffed spellpower) + Starfire base damage = overall Starfire damage (uncritted)?

Erdluf · 08/28/09, 8:35 AM

Originally Posted by Yllidan

It's for sure a totally noobish question, but how do I use the spell coefficients (from the pre TTT thread) for i.e. Starfire?
1.646 (Starfire coefficient) * SP (fullbuffed spellpower) + Starfire base damage = overall Starfire damage (uncritted)?

Close. However some of the multipliers (everything except coef and WoC) also apply to the base:

Effective Starfire coefficient: (1 (base) + 0.2 (Wrath of Cenarius)) * 1.247 (damage multiplier) * 1.1 (Moonfury) = 1.646.

The actual formula is

(SF base+ Spellpower * (1 + 0.2 )) * 1.247 * 1.1

Your tooltip will show Starfire Base * 1.1 (Moonfury)

A website (MMO or WoWhead) will show the starfire base as learned (at 78). Both SF and Wrath base damage increase (slightly) with level. You can get the 80 base numbers from the spreadsheet, or from your tooltip if you have a spec without Moonfury.

Treetard · 08/30/09, 1:42 AM

I apologize in advance as my armory doesn't seem to be updating to my resto gear atm.

Basically I have four piece T7/7.5 for the set bonus, and the rest of my gear is Ulduar stuff. I'm sitting at about 2300 SP unbuffed, with 504/291 regen.

Looking at Armory profiles for various Druids posting on these forums, and ones I know in-game, it seems most end up around 600/350 regen. These are also the Druids that apparently never run OOM.

Myself on the other hand... I go OOM in Naxx 10 still, with an Ulduar 25 geared tank/DPS during badge farming. Not every boss, but some... and some seems like it should be none.

Basically it feels like I have to heal EVERYONE, and if I don't because "the other healer will get it", somebody dies. Because of this, I'm spending every fight spamming Nourishes and Rejuvs.

I'm not entirely sure what the issue is. I know I'm OOMing because of having to heal so much, whereas most Druids seem to just toss Rejuvs around and nothing more. When I do that, people die. A lot. It's never enough healing.

At the same time I'm always topping the healing charts, and it feels weird to know that I did the most healing... but I'm at 0% mana, and the other healer is only 2-3% behind me in heals, but has 90% of their mana left.

oopsminded · 08/30/09, 4:00 AM

Originally Posted by Treetard

...

Rejuve Idol + regen or mixt regen/SP trinkets (no need for Spark) + early (when you hit 50-60% of your mana pool) Innervate and then every time is off cooldown + Innervate Glyph + mana potion + 3/3 Revitalize, all of these will give the possibility to keep a Rejuvenation buffer in every 10men raid and will leave you enough mana for WG or direct healing, when neaded.

Even with the T7.5 bonus and possible Nourish glyph and 2/2 Empowered Touch, I still think you could get better results healing Naxx the pre 3.1 way, with Regrowth as direct heal.

Treetard · 08/30/09, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by oopsminded

Rejuve Idol + regen or mixt regen/SP trinkets (no need for Spark) + early (when you hit 50-60% of your mana pool) Innervate and then every time is off cooldown + Innervate Glyph + mana potion + 3/3 Revitalize, all of these will give the possibility to keep a Rejuvenation buffer in every 10men raid and will leave you enough mana for WG or direct healing, when neaded.

Even with the T7.5 bonus and possible Nourish glyph and 2/2 Empowered Touch, I still think you could get better results healing Naxx the pre 3.1 way, with Regrowth as direct heal.

Actually one issue with my mana regen was that I've been using Rank 1 Wild Growth, and also casting it EVERY cooldown. I've been PvP-specced, so this was my first time using WG and not only did I go overboard with it, but I never bothered training ranks 2-4 either since I never used it for PvP.

With that out that way, I'm currently using Nourish, Regrowth, and Swiftmend glyphs - as I've been put on MT healing usually every raid. I'm dropping Nourish and Regrowth for Innervate and maybe Barkskin to save myself a few gold on PvP. Not sure Rejuv glyph is worthwhile for me at the moment, as people are rarely, if ever, under 50% in the content I do (non-hard mode Ulduar 10/25).

Also, for Revitalize, I wasn't sure exactly how well that would work for my regen. Obviously it's a good talent as far as raid-wide regen goes, but I find I don't take all that much damage, and when I do it's in a 25man, and another healer hits me before I get to myself (as I usually focus on melee or or anyone who might be hit again the soonest) Does Revitalize proc off overhealing tics? If so, that makes it a bit more appealing to me.

Dalan88 · 08/30/09, 4:11 PM

I am new to feral been balance all the way through lvling, but my guild wants me to learn to tank so is this a good build
The World of Warcraft Armory. if i did not link that right sry not used to forums. willing to take any help i can get. thanks

Treetard · 08/30/09, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dalan88

I am new to feral been balance all the way through lvling, but my guild wants me to learn to tank so is this a good build
The World of Warcraft Armory. if i did not link that right sry not used to forums. willing to take any help i can get. thanks

That's a pretty bad spec for tanking

Improved Mark of the Wild - You need 2/2 in this. 2% stats is AMAZING. Every Druid of any spec should have this nowadays.
Natural/Master Shapeshifter - This is really for such a small amount of threat (that generally is never needed) that I wouldn't waste points here.
Feral Instinct - You're probably gonna want 3/3 here for AOE tanking, and for threat in general since Swipe will be your spammed ability on bosses in between CDs.
Shredding Attacks - This does nothing at all for tanking. Only keep points here if you have leftovers after getting vital talents, and plan to Kitty every now and then.
Natural Reaction - Should have 3/3 here. No reason to pass up 2% dodge for one talent point.
Furor - Remove two points from this to place into Imp MOTW.

This is my current spec for tanking ToC - Note I rarely if ever need to go Kitty, and my build is setup so that I am fully buffed without having to rely on other classes (Demo Roar, Infected Wounds). I also do not use Imp Mangle because it just makes a rotation messier.

The World of Warcraft Armory

Of course there are many ways to spec. For example, if I knew I'd have somebody else doing debuffs for me all the time, I'd remove points from Demo Roar and Infected Wounds, and put those into kitty talents.

oopsminded · 08/31/09, 3:53 AM

Originally Posted by Treetard

Does Revitalize proc off overhealing tics?

Yes.

Radubadu · 08/31/09, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Treetard

Of course there are many ways to spec. For example, if I knew I'd have somebody else doing debuffs for me all the time, I'd remove points from Demo Roar and Infected Wounds, and put those into kitty talents.

Question about this. I'm extremely new to feral tanking, well tanking in general for that matter. Even if you had someone else that could apply those debuffs wouldn't it be better to do it yourself to help generate threat?

barrettj · 08/31/09, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Radubadu

Question about this. I'm extremely new to feral tanking, well tanking in general for that matter. Even if you had someone else that could apply those debuffs wouldn't it be better to do it yourself to help generate threat?

Demo roar doesn't do much threat anymore (I may be wrong about this, but I believe it was nerfed back in Vanilla, along with the warriors demo shout, to prevent an easy method of killing nef's adds). I don't believe infected wounds generates any additional threat over the mangle that causes it, but I could easily be wrong.

The main thing is that your moves that generate additional threat (Maul, Lacerate, FF) will probably do significantly more threat than either of those would, so you're better off having someone else do the debuffs and you concentrating on your threat moves.

Treetard · 08/31/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by Radubadu

Question about this. I'm extremely new to feral tanking, well tanking in general for that matter. Even if you had someone else that could apply those debuffs wouldn't it be better to do it yourself to help generate threat?

I apologize, as I haven't been raiding much (at all, really) since 3.2 came out, and I've been busy gathering some preliminary data for another MMO, so I'm drawing a blank here when trying to answer your question but...

I seem to recall the reason for not speccing those two talents if certain other classes are in your raid is because certain other classes can apply those same debuffs in their normal rotation, or at the very least easier/cheaper/more effectively.

Hopefully somebody else knows a more exact answer for you. I do, however, find them very useful in 10mans which I generally pug, and usually end up with 2-3 of certain classes, so the odds of me getting a class that can do those for me is kinda low.

kalbear · 08/31/09, 6:47 PM

Question about this. I'm extremely new to feral tanking, well tanking in general for that matter. Even if you had someone else that could apply those debuffs wouldn't it be better to do it yourself to help generate threat?

Demo Roar provides very little threat compared to any other damaging move you could potentially make.

The primary reason for not getting Infected Wounds is that it is the most fragile of the slowing attacks, can be easily overwritten by everyone else's due to the nature of requiring 2 stacks on a target, and is more easily and automatically covered by every other tank. TClap, Icy Talons and seals are all automatically applied by every other tank in their standard rotation.The main reason to not get FA is that it simply is harder for a bear to get it than a warrior more often than not and it can be applied easily by almost any kind of warrior.

That being said, if your raid (typically 10-man) does not have these debuffs, it is very important that you do grab these on harder content. They will make a significant difference in damage intake.

Radubadu · 09/01/09, 10:06 AM

I pulled the following from the Bear Megathread:

"In no particular order, the threat moves you should be using:
- Mangle. You should always be using this if it is off cooldown.
- Swipe. You should be using this if tanking more than 1 mob, as long as it doesn't screw up crowd control (sheep/etc). Depending on your gear and precise spec, Swipe might also be better than Lacerate on single targets.
- Lacerate. Most of Lacerates threat comes from a passive bonus threat, the damage dealt by Lacerate only generates half the threat that normal damage would do. Nevertheless, a full stack of Lacerate can be a decent contributing to your threat and your DPS.
- Maul. As mentioned above, Maul generates alot of threat, but has a high effective rage cost.
- Faerie Fire (Feral). This move costs no rage, but still generates a considerably amount of threat. In single-mob situations, it's worth it to use it on every cooldown (provided it doesn't overlap with the use of Mangle or other essential abilities)."

I have a couple questions:

1. In regards to mangle is the above suggesting that you spam mangle whenever it's available or just to make sure you do before the bleed effect wears off?

2. My main a mage and lvling my druid as resto/balance I'm completely unfamiliar with the mechanics of maul. The way I understand it is that when hit it will take the place of the next "white" hit. That being the case if I hit it then hit mangle, will mangle overwrite maul or will the next regular attack still be maul?

3. While the above list is pretty much what I was looking for I am curious as to whether or not anyone with more experience has a priority of these abilities. The way I'm reading it it seems that it would be Mangle > Faerie Fire > Maul > Lacerate.

4a. Lastly, concerning aoe situations, if I'm holding threat on my target and spamming swipe between cooldowns and adds are still going after someone else is this something I'm doing wrong or do they have the wrong target? I tanked my first heroic last night in VH and single target (boss fights) I did ok but given that almost all trash is 3-4 mobs we actually wiped a few times because I couldn't seem to keep threat on the adds.

4b.The only thing I could figure was that it may have had to do with the amount of damage I was doing as my dps was around 960 and the lock I was with was using aoe (inferno I think it's called) and doing about 1800 dps. If that's the issue am I better off just spamming swipe in situatios like that?

I know these are all questions for a tanking discussion but they seemed basic enough to post here.

Murna · 09/01/09, 10:23 AM

1.: The thread answers your question exactly. It is written: "You should always be using this if it is off cooldown". So no, of course not only before the bleed effect wears off.

2. When you hit Maul, you won't maul immediately but you will "replace" your next normal white hit with the maul. Think of it like you "enhance" or "upgrade" your next normal white hit. Maul does interact or overwrite the GCD in any way. Thus: Spam the Maul button while pushing the other ones. If you hit maul and then hit mangle, you will instantly mangle and the next regular attack will instead be a maul.

3. This is correct. Maul is more important than Lacerate. However, a full 5-stack of Lacerate is doing quite okay.

4a: You can't hold AoE of a good damage dealer if you stay on one target. You have to switch targets and enhance the hits with maul. If you see someone come close on your Threat Meter on one target, you can use a mangle to get some space. And finally you still have Taunt on a 8 Second CD with 30y range.